The fucking karma system

[Deacon]

Thats too long and aggressive for me to argue with.



I give up.

Change it back.

Time to put theory to the test.

[Prox]

Oh, I know, to stop the t-baiting we should make it ban on sight without a warning. I'm tired of constantly warning people when the next day I have to do it again.

[ursus]

Oh, I know, to stop the t-baiting we should make it ban on sight without a warning. I'm tired of constantly warning people when the next day I have to do it again

The main point I want to make is that baiting is simply too hard to prove half of the time. If someone in the server says "Hey, that guy baited me!" there's no way for me to be sure unless I saw it happen. I say we make RDM ban-on-sight instead, and switch over the karma system. We won't have to ban less people, but it will be easier.

[Deathie]

The main point I wan to make is that baiting is simply too hard to prove half of the time. We won't have to ban less people, but it will be easier.

I fully agree.

[Travelsonic]

The main point I wan to make is that baiting is simply too hard to prove half of the time. If someone in the server says "Hey, that guy baited me!" there's no way for me to be sure unless I saw it happen

Question, what exactly is the formal definition of baiting wee use?

[Sabb]

I'd like to see actual examples brought out. Until then, stop cluttering this thread with the buttfuck opinions you think are relevant.

I'd also like to point out the fact that making karma less strict would literally ELIMINATE baiting, which is an even bigger problem than RDMing. Baiting is much harder to prove than RDM, much harder to ban for, and generally more of a pain in the ass to deal with. RDM is obvious when committed, and can be proven 100% conclusively with a two console commands and 1-2 screenshots.

You're judging everyone else by impossibly high standards.

To gain 250 karma in 3 rounds is impossible, unless you kill a niggerload of traitors. You're throwing out an absolute best-case scenario as a fact, which can't be called anything other than bullshit.

Let's throw out an ACTUAL common scenario:

1. You have 1000 karma, and kill someone else with 1000 karma, you now have 600 karma. Congratulations.
2. After just losing 400 karma for killing a single person, which, as we've established, is bullshit: You're paranoid as fuck. If you're like me and most other players, you won't shoot anyone at all if you can help it.
3. You gain 35 karma per round. After one round, your karma is 635. 670. 705. 740. 775. 810. 845. That's seven (7) rounds, Deacon.
4. Actually, that's wrong. Before the temp servers, it was 30 karma per round. 630, 660, 690, 720, 750, 780, 810, 840. Eight rounds.

Now, let's assume you kill two people by accident. Before any of you say that this is implausible, I'd like to pre-emptively stop you to tell you that you're an asshole. Once you've killed one person, someone's going to attack you. Since you're in a rush from just having killed someone, you're going to instinctively shoot that person too. After losing 800 karma, in our BEST-CASE scenario you're at 200 karma. If your karma was at 800 or 850, congratulations -- You're now at sub-100 karma. It's going to take you exactly 56 rounds of doing precisely nothing to reach 850 karma. At six rounds per map, that's 9 maps of nothing. If you kill one wrong person, congratulations. You get to start over. If each round takes about 5-10 minutes, which they generally do, that's 4.6 to 9.3 hours. An average of seven hours of punishment for killing two people at 1000 karma.

Now, before anyone argues that I just used the worst-case scenario as my prime example, stop right there again. Congratulations: You're also retarded. From killing one person when both parties have 1000 karma, that's still eight rounds of waiting which equates to anywhere from 40 minutes to 1 hour 20 minutes of waiting. For one person.



Just for the sake of killing the next 5 minutes, I'm going to do some more math:

If you kill someone who has just mistakenly killed someone with 1000 karma and they were prudent enough to have 1000 karma beforehand, you're losing 40% of 600 karma. That's 240. You're now at 860. If you're a new player, and you were already at 850 karma, you're now sitting at a comfortable 610 karma. You've just lost 8 rounds of playing time for not checking a body until you're back to standard karma.

If you're that guy in the previous scenario who was at 1000 karma and just killed someone at 1000 karma (Keep in mind, you could be killing that person for anything from shooting at the ground around your feet to shooting you in the foot, or dragging around a freshly dead corpse), people just saw you kill someone. If you're the main character in the previous scenario, you're going to kill that person. What happens if you fail? Assuming everyone here starts with 1000 karma, the ONE PERSON WHO HAS ONLY KILLED PEOPLE WHO WERE ATTACKING THEM just fell into our near-worst-case scenario, and has 200 karma.

Either way, my point summarized is: The karma system does not forgive or forget. If someone mass RDMs and gets banned for a week, their karma does not get reset. Their karma never resets. They are forced to waste hours of time on our server for the sole purpose of being able to play again.

Of course, there's no karma penalty for baiting. If you bait someone who isn't particularly sharp and is just on the server to have fun, they're the one who loses out. Even if the damage logs show one person shooting another person once, that's not nearly enough to ban someone. The only time baiters get banned is when they do it so overtly and with every sort of carelessness that it's impossible not to notice. Our karma system offers nothing but sore punishment for those who lack what you thick-headed pricks try to pass off as "common sense," and fails to actually punish those who abuse it. The only solution to this problem is to have more active admins and VIPs. I don't know about the  rest of whoever still has any sense of respect, but I'm not going to waste my time being the only one who cares about keeping the server as clean as possible.

Really, though. I'm not mad just for the sake of being mad. I'm mad because nobody has put forth an actual reason why our current karma system is more practical than the old one. If you can, then by all means do so. I'll take back this entire post in the morning all for the sake of one person being sensible.

That whole situation is based off of common mistakes made by YOU though. Not everyone's going to sit on their ass and gain 35 karma per round and bitch about losing karma. If you actually play and shoot some traitors Deacon is absolutely right and you can get your karma back up without any trouble. Just use common sense I don't see how it's so damn hard. If you make a mistake and shoot and kill an innocent don't just fucking kill whoever shoots you next because yes it is VERY likely that someone's going to shoot you after that. I actually see Deacon often kill someone who's innocent for whatever reason and simply kill himself so he won't get other people to lose karma and won't lose karma himself during the confusion. You can easily do that, or hesitate significantly to shoot.
And I just thought that I'd point something out. Your whole argument would be a whole lot better if you didn't just constantly call everyone retarded. Especially seeing as you're the one having troubles with the karma system and raising your karma, not us?

Another thing though. Baiting isn't a bit deal if again, you have common sense and don't just shoot after any gunshot. It's likely that people will t-bait so think for a second and don't actually shoot to kill someone unless they're absolutely clearly doing the same and are damaging you. Let me remind you as well that baiting is actually more or less allowed. Depends on how the person is doing it and the circumstances, but it's not officially against the rules. I will ban people for traitor baiting sometimes though but only because people complain about it after losing karma because they can't keep themselves from shooting any person with the slightest excuse. Or simply can't think stuff through. So it's only to more or less calm other players down because it apparently "ruins the game" which I disagree with tbh. I don't personally care about traitor baiting. And yes, people do traitor bait me and it's annoying but it's simply a part of the game.

[Prox]

Another thing though. Baiting isn't a bit deal if again, you have common sense and don't just shoot after any gunshot. It's likely that people will t-bait so think for a second and don't actually shoot to kill someone unless they're absolutely clearly doing the same and are damaging you. Let me remind you as well that baiting is actually more or less allowed. Depends on how the person is doing it and the circumstances, but it's not officially against the rules. I will ban people for traitor baiting sometimes though but only because people complain about it after losing karma because they can't keep themselves from shooting any person with the slightest excuse. Or simply can't think stuff through. So it's only to more or less calm other players down because it apparently "ruins the game" which I disagree with tbh. I don't personally care about traitor baiting. And yes, people do traitor bait me and it's annoying but it's simply a part of the game.

T baiting ruins the gameplay more or less and it is very likely that everyone will lose their karma at least once because of it, besides, each player has different experiences and personalities meaning that for some people the T baiting could be very irritating.

[Deathie]

And yes, people do traitor bait me and it's annoying but it's simply a part of the game.

...I really hate when people use that as a defense for something.

Yes, becuase in a game about finding the traitor among thieves, the people acting like retards and trying to get you to intentionally put a bullet in their head totally adds to the immersion.

[Sabb]

T baiting ruins the gameplay more or less and it is very likely that everyone will lose their karma at least once because of it, besides, each player has different experiences and personalities meaning that for some people the T baiting could be very irritating.

Yes I understand that. It's shitty to work around too and I realize that but it's simply there and a part of the game, it's better to just work around it as it's really not that hard to do so.
It does help to have a different kind of interpretation of this too really. The way I think of it is that as I said yes it's shitty sometimes and can be annoying but it's virtually impossible to completely rid of in any case. So simply work around it and play the game smart. Don't just complain because you think it SHOULD be something else. That's basically the same mentality as the players who complain about people killing them without solid proof. "NO you're not allowed to do that! You didn't have any proof you didn't know it was me!" But in reality the player was simply extremely suspicious, might have walked past an unID'd body or something like that. Sure it sucks that you got killed before you expected to die, but it was due to your own mistakes. It's the same thing with karma baiting. Sure it sucks that you made a mistake and lost karma maybe even due to another player, but when it comes down to it it's almost always preventable by good judgement.

Honestly just thinking of things that way when playing keeps me calm but focused on the game. I just don't blame what happens to me on other players. I mean even when you have no one else to blame other than the player such as for full on first bood RDM with him clearly shooting to kill you. I still don't just sit there saying "Oh this fucking sucks, now I have to sit on my ass for 8 rounds just to get decent karma again." Instead I suck it up and just play like I normally do.



EDIT:

...I really hate when people use that as a defense for something.

Yes, becuase in a game about finding the traitor among thieves, the people acting like retards and trying to get you to intentionally put a bullet in their head totally adds to the immersion.

Obviously it's not a good part of the game but it's entirely absolutely unavoidable. Even with temporary karma it is it just won't affect people quite as much I suppose. Still better to just suck it up and work around it though because it simply is what it is.
Really though, no matter what way you look at the karma system in not everyone will be happy no matter what you do. And there will always be issues simply because of the type of game it is. It might not be the same people complaining with a temporary karma system, but people WILL still complain. After all there's a reason the karma system was change and it wasn't because coolz just likes to fuck with everyone.

But still. I really don't care at all what kind of karma system we have as far as temporary or permanent goes. I just want people to stop bitching about it really because again, even with the temporary karma system SOMEONE will be complaining.

[Prox]

Yes I understand that. It's shitty to work around too and I realize that but it's simply there and a part of the game, it's better to just work around it as it's really not that hard to do so.
It does help to have a different kind of interpretation of this too really. The way I think of it is that as I said yes it's shitty sometimes and can be annoying but it's virtually impossible to completely rid of in any case. So simply work around it and play the game smart. Don't just complain because you think it SHOULD be something else. That's basically the same mentality as the players who complain about people killing them without solid proof. "NO you're not allowed to do that! You didn't have any proof you didn't know it was me!" But in reality the player was simply extremely suspicious, might have walked past an unID'd body or something like that. Sure it sucks that you got killed before you expected to die, but it was due to your own mistakes. It's the same thing with karma baiting. Sure it sucks that you made a mistake and lost karma maybe even due to another player, but when it comes down to it it's almost always preventable by good judgement.

Honestly just thinking of things that way when playing keeps me calm but focused on the game. I just don't blame what happens to me on other players. I mean even when you have no one else to blame other than the player such as for full on first bood RDM with him clearly shooting to kill you. I still don't just sit there saying "Oh this fucking sucks, now I have to sit on my ass for 8 rounds just to get decent karma again." Instead I suck it up and just play like I normally do.

Are you saying that I'm a dumb ass and I blame others for shit I do wrong in-game?

After all there's a reason the karma system was change and it wasn't because coolz just likes to fuck with everyone.

Yes, it was because of a couple of threads about it, and now we have plenty of them.

[Sabb]

Are you saying that I'm a dumb ass and I blame others for shit I do wrong in-game?
Yes, it was because of a couple of threads about it, and now we have plenty of them.

Was absolutely more than a couple and it was hard for VIPs and admins to manage.
And no, I'm not sure if you're serious about that but I'm not meaning to insult/offend anyone or call them stupid. I'm simply saying good, calm and rational judgement can prevent literally everything everyone is complaining about aside from maybe full on first blood RDMers in some cases.

[Prox]

Was absolutely more than a couple and it was hard for VIPs and admins to manage.
And no, I'm not sure if you're serious about that but I'm not meaning to insult/offend anyone or call them stupid. I'm simply saying good, calm and rational judgement can prevent literally everything everyone is complaining about aside from maybe full on first blood RDMers in some cases.

I'm not the one complaining about the karma system, I simply support this opinion because of all the threads that have already been made.
And I was not completely understanding if you were referring it to me or to everyone in general so I put it in a shortest way.

[yoshi]

I.. I don't even... I don't even know who to agree with here. This is retarded.

[Seb]

Sabb, I'm not even going to quote your posts.
I love you. But your counter-arguments are dumb as shit, as anybody who reads over them can see.

I will now rip apart the only three sentences I read after Gamefreak's post, which should be absolutely impossible to refute because math.

That whole situation is based off of common mistakes made by YOU though.
No no no no NO, these are common mistakes that EVERYBODY makes because they are HUMAN. To assume you're above human error isn't worth the fractions of the calories I'll burn typing.


Not everyone's going to sit on their ass and gain 35 karma per round and bitch about losing karma.
Unless they want to actually, you know, play the game.


If you actually play and shoot some traitors Deacon is absolutely right and you can get your karma back up without any trouble.
After shooting somebody and becoming about as useful as a sack of shit, do you think you would shoot ANYBODY unless they were to knife the Detective right in front of you?

[ursus]

Sabb, your entire argument consists of "You think the karma system is bad because you make bad decisions." I'm not even going to bother responding seriously to that. Deacon's scenario consists of managing to kill traitors every single round, which as I already said is an impossibly high standard. You don't just gain 250 karma in three rounds without being extremely lucky.