Uh, how do other TTT servers thrive that don't use same horrid karma system we use?
I think the karma system does a great job of punishing people who are careless and also makes players think before shooting someone. It's just that traitor-baiting totally ruins it if the person committing it has high karma.
The same topic all over again.
It won't be changed, you just have to deal with it. Everybody else has. I quite like the system myself.It has to be changed because these kind of threads ain't stopping. I don't understand why coolz haven't switched it back yet.
I like what Pidda's TTT server does:
- 100 karma for each round you go without hurting team mates [or killing]
- Mass penalties for RDMing [2 kills brings you down to 0 karma, and you don't start dealing more than 10% damage until the 500s or so]
- The ranking system is different - instead of guest/Reg/VIP/Admin, they have user/Respected/Operator/Moderator/Admin, and everyone can vote kick, vote ban, but Moderators and above can REALLY reset karma. Moderators and above can SLAY players, a feature MANY other TTT servers have that would be good for dealing with RDMers [problem once? slay, continued problem? slay until ragequit or bans]
Honestly, you can't say "nobody" wants change, since you see right here that people want different types of changes - making this claim absolutely retarded. Why do many people keep making threads about it if its not an issue, people who have been here for a while and happen to be good players? More importantly, how does it make ANY sense to not have any avenue where somebody kicked in the balls karma wise for dealing with an RDMer can get his or her karma fixed?
Being contempt with the problem doesn't make it not a problem. Maybe people stopped caring because of the inactivity in addressing the issue, and any hostility towards change.
There ARE serious problems, and things that put this server at least slightly behind others in terms of efficiently dealing with RDMers and players having their karma fucked. Bitching about others bringing it up, or telling people to ignore it doesn't fix that.
You bring up many valid points but I must reiterate: If its such a problem, why is it that our server is always consistently full of players?
There are many people (guests) that come here BECAUSE of our karma system.
It has to be changed because these kind of threads ain't stopping. I don't understand why coolz haven't switched it back yet.
And no, I don't mind the perma karma system.
Prove it.
Lol? Just look at the server its ussally like always full...
You bring up many valid points but I must reiterate: If its such a problem, why is it that our server is always consistently full of players?Yeah, at the same time I believe there was a hand full of regulars who quit TTT, like me, because of the horrid karma system.
There are many people (guests) that come here BECAUSE of our karma system.
And as of now when some people ask me to join the servers due to some really bad minge (but not hacker) I will still join but that won't be the case with the old system. It's simply retarded hard to manage that, but if that's what everyone wants I'm fine with that.As an admin, it is your duty to do so. You cannot avoid it. And if you think it's hard to manage for you then think about those people who make reports.
You bring up many valid points but I must reiterate: If its such a problem, why is it that our server is always consistently full of players?The servers weren't empty with the old karma system either.
There are many people (guests) that come here BECAUSE of our karma system.
Now why can't we put the old karma system for some time and see how it goes, we can always switch it back.
As an admin, it is your duty to do so. You cannot avoid it. And if you think it's hard to manage for you then think about those people who make reports.Yea okay Prox. I'm not meant to be RND's bitch. When something's that hard to manage there's simply no point. I'd like to see you be promoted, join every time someone complains about a tiny RDM or something like that and manage the servers thoroughly the whole time you're there. Eventually it gets to the point that the game's unplayable for you and you'll lose interest. That's probably half the reason a lot of admins go inactive so I'm simply not going to obligate myself to that. I'm not saying that I'm just going to ignore minges and hackers and shit though. Obviously if there's a clear hacker/rule breaker they're going to be dealt with if I'm there at the time. And keep in mind who has to manage the reports as well. That also gets to be a pain but I'm saying I'm willing to do that but I'm not going to really be nearly as strict on stuff probably as there will be a LOT of people causing issues even more so if the server gets temporary karma.
The servers weren't empty with the old karma system either.
Now why can't we put the old karma system for some time and see how it goes, we can always switch it back.
Yea okay Prox. I'm not meant to be RND's bitch. When something's that hard to manage there's simply no point. I'd like to see you be promoted, join every time someone complains about a tiny RDM or something like that and manage the servers thoroughly the whole time you're there. Eventually it gets to the point that the game's unplayable for you and you'll lose interest.I already do this, every time someone complains I join and usually there is no need to stay for long. But I think it's understandable since you're one of the few active admins/VIPs on the server. It wouldn't be this hard if there would be more.
That's probably half the reason a lot of admins go inactive so I'm simply not going to obligate myself to that.If that's the reason why so much admins are inactive, then it is very disappointing. Everyone who applies for this status must be able to deal with troubles on the servers, if they can't, they shouldn't apply at all.
And keep in mind who has to manage the reports as well.That is a good thing obviously. But why do you assume that there will be so much more trouble than there already is? Of course if there would be more active higher ranked members then it could be reduced to a minimum but then again, the karma system can be switched back.
I already do this, every time someone complains I join and usually there is no need to stay for long. But I think it's understandable since you're one of the few active admins/VIPs on the server. It wouldn't be this hard if there would be more.I assume there will be so much more trouble because it was horrible before permanent karma and have no reason to believe it would be any different.
If that's the reason why so much admins are inactive, then it is very disappointing. Everyone who applies for this status must be able to deal with troubles on the servers, if they can't, they shouldn't apply at all.
That is a good thing obviously. But why do you assume that there will be so much more trouble than there already is? Of course if there would be more active higher ranked members then it could be reduced to a minimum but then again, the karma system can be switched back.
I assume there will be so much more trouble because it was horrible before permanent karma and have no reason to believe it would be any different.Helping the servers out does not = being RND's bitch. So you're saying that if you have some spare time and someone requests your help you ignore them? But since you're the only active admin on the servers, I guess it could get irritating.
But still, applying for admin doesn't mean applying for a role as RND's bitch. You aren't really expected to go in-game every time someone complains, you're just expected to moderate the servers while you're in them. So no, it is not "my duty" or any other admins', and is not "unavoidable."
I decided to play TTT yesterday, and the server just seemed to be a crock of shit. I can't imagine anyone calling our playerbase "good" in any way.
Helping the servers out does not = being RND's bitch. So you're saying that if you have some spare time and someone requests your help you ignore them? But since you're the only active admin on the servers, I guess it could get irritating.Lol I'm not saying that at all, please read and understand everything I'm saying. I said that IF TTT went to temporary karma again, I would be joining when players ask me to a lot less. As of now I still join if I'm not in the middle of something when someone has an issue that I think I should deal with. No helping the servers doesn't make an admin RND's bitch and that's not at all what I'm saying, I help the servers when I can. But a LOT of players ask me to join constantly at times often for issues that really don't need me to join to manage. If the servers went back to temporary karma there would be a lot more unruly players and people would be asking me to join even more so. The "not being RND's bitch" thing is referring to that where no one's expected to constantly join every 10 minutes off and on because people complain.
Elaborate, please - I mean, I notice issues, and wonder if anybody else is irritated by the sme / simila ones.I do have to agree with gamefreak but I'd rather not go into detail. I'm sure he would like to any ways lol.
Well how about the temporary karma system gets applied and then we will see who's right and who's wrong.So you don't think that there's going to be any more minging and troublesome players with temporary karma than permanent karma?
So you don't think that there's going to be any more minging and troublesome players with temporary karma than permanent karma?
I think there will be just as many.Very rarely do people ever just accept a ban though including for RDM. There's always some sort of an excuse.
The difference here is that you can ban them without having to worry about them trying to sidestep or complain about technicalities.
It's easier to just ban an RDMer than it is a T-Baiter.
You know what i find funny from all these threads? quite a few of the people that are complaining about the perma karma are the same people that use to get reported alot for rdming Lmao (not referring to just this thread, I'm referring to like all these threads since the perm karma has been in place.)
For one, the biggest complaint is not with permakarma, but how much is lost or gained. Second, I don't recall anyone here being SUCCESSFULLY reported - I sure as hell have never been reported fore RDMing.
First i wasn't referring to you. Second like i said not just referring to this thread I'm also talking about all the threads last year as well. The biggest complaints when perm karma came out was mostly from known rdmers.
...like?
Doesn't matter who it is Since alot of people have changed since then... But i just thought it was funny since they use to get reported for rdming...
So
it doesn't matter
but you bring it up anyways.
Okay.
Personally I like the karma system, nor do I think that it should be changed. It actually creates and maintains a cause and effect for
people who troll,bait,rdm ect.
No, it creates a game where people are scared shitless to shoot at people who are killing them because if they are wrong, their karma is fucked - and will take a very long time to get back to where it was WITHOUT factoring in other trolls/RDMers. It creates a game where people can just RDM and leave, trolling a server getting them to fuck their karma, and ruin the game. If we made it so VIPs and/or admins could modify karma [reset, add or subtract karma], and tweaked the values a little, the game wouldn't break, the game wouldn't suddenly become a haven for RDMers and trolls, it would still have control, but it wouldn't be so overbearing tha those who kill RDMers feel overwhelmed, fucked.It's really not a big deal though. If you've got common sense you can avoid most of those situations or at least get your karma back up quite quickly. There really aren't that many RDMers. But that argument of "It creates a game where people can just RDM and leave, trolling a server getting them to fuck their karma, and ruin the game" is pretty horrible. With temporary karma it's just that but worse essentially. Sure it won't mess the player's game up QUITE as much, but then they could simply constantly rejoin after the map changes to again RDM ruining the round and people's karma.
Seriously, kill an RDMer after working your karma all the way back to the 960s, and watch it drop in that one swoop back to 330 and tell me things are not fucked up.
First i wasn't referring to you. Second like i said not just referring to this thread I'm also talking about all the threads last year as well. The biggest complaints when perm karma came out was mostly from known rdmers.
I disagree, of course. I feel that it is not hard to differentiate between an RDMer and a T, and that if you hold your fire for just a second longer you will maintain your karma. That being said, you do lose karma based on the amount of karma the person you killed has. Killing a 1000 karma player when you have 1000 karma results in a loss of 400 karma.
Which is not enough to render you worthless. Less effective, yes, but not unplayable. You will be back to 850 in 3 rounds if you don't injure any more comrades.
Oh, I know, to stop the t-baiting we should make it ban on sight without a warning. I'm tired of constantly warning people when the next day I have to do it again
The main point I wan to make is that baiting is simply too hard to prove half of the time. We won't have to ban less people, but it will be easier.
The main point I wan to make is that baiting is simply too hard to prove half of the time. If someone in the server says "Hey, that guy baited me!" there's no way for me to be sure unless I saw it happen
I'd like to see actual examples brought out. Until then, stop cluttering this thread with the buttfuck opinions you think are relevant.That whole situation is based off of common mistakes made by YOU though. Not everyone's going to sit on their ass and gain 35 karma per round and bitch about losing karma. If you actually play and shoot some traitors Deacon is absolutely right and you can get your karma back up without any trouble. Just use common sense I don't see how it's so damn hard. If you make a mistake and shoot and kill an innocent don't just fucking kill whoever shoots you next because yes it is VERY likely that someone's going to shoot you after that. I actually see Deacon often kill someone who's innocent for whatever reason and simply kill himself so he won't get other people to lose karma and won't lose karma himself during the confusion. You can easily do that, or hesitate significantly to shoot.
I'd also like to point out the fact that making karma less strict would literally ELIMINATE baiting, which is an even bigger problem than RDMing. Baiting is much harder to prove than RDM, much harder to ban for, and generally more of a pain in the ass to deal with. RDM is obvious when committed, and can be proven 100% conclusively with a two console commands and 1-2 screenshots.
You're judging everyone else by impossibly high standards.
To gain 250 karma in 3 rounds is impossible, unless you kill a niggerload of traitors. You're throwing out an absolute best-case scenario as a fact, which can't be called anything other than bullshit.
Let's throw out an ACTUAL common scenario:
1. You have 1000 karma, and kill someone else with 1000 karma, you now have 600 karma. Congratulations.
2. After just losing 400 karma for killing a single person, which, as we've established, is bullshit: You're paranoid as fuck. If you're like me and most other players, you won't shoot anyone at all if you can help it.
3. You gain 35 karma per round. After one round, your karma is 635. 670. 705. 740. 775. 810. 845. That's seven (7) rounds, Deacon.
4. Actually, that's wrong. Before the temp servers, it was 30 karma per round. 630, 660, 690, 720, 750, 780, 810, 840. Eight rounds.
Now, let's assume you kill two people by accident. Before any of you say that this is implausible, I'd like to pre-emptively stop you to tell you that you're an asshole. Once you've killed one person, someone's going to attack you. Since you're in a rush from just having killed someone, you're going to instinctively shoot that person too. After losing 800 karma, in our BEST-CASE scenario you're at 200 karma. If your karma was at 800 or 850, congratulations -- You're now at sub-100 karma. It's going to take you exactly 56 rounds of doing precisely nothing to reach 850 karma. At six rounds per map, that's 9 maps of nothing. If you kill one wrong person, congratulations. You get to start over. If each round takes about 5-10 minutes, which they generally do, that's 4.6 to 9.3 hours. An average of seven hours of punishment for killing two people at 1000 karma.
Now, before anyone argues that I just used the worst-case scenario as my prime example, stop right there again. Congratulations: You're also retarded. From killing one person when both parties have 1000 karma, that's still eight rounds of waiting which equates to anywhere from 40 minutes to 1 hour 20 minutes of waiting. For one person.
Just for the sake of killing the next 5 minutes, I'm going to do some more math:
If you kill someone who has just mistakenly killed someone with 1000 karma and they were prudent enough to have 1000 karma beforehand, you're losing 40% of 600 karma. That's 240. You're now at 860. If you're a new player, and you were already at 850 karma, you're now sitting at a comfortable 610 karma. You've just lost 8 rounds of playing time for not checking a body until you're back to standard karma.
If you're that guy in the previous scenario who was at 1000 karma and just killed someone at 1000 karma (Keep in mind, you could be killing that person for anything from shooting at the ground around your feet to shooting you in the foot, or dragging around a freshly dead corpse), people just saw you kill someone. If you're the main character in the previous scenario, you're going to kill that person. What happens if you fail? Assuming everyone here starts with 1000 karma, the ONE PERSON WHO HAS ONLY KILLED PEOPLE WHO WERE ATTACKING THEM just fell into our near-worst-case scenario, and has 200 karma.
Either way, my point summarized is: The karma system does not forgive or forget. If someone mass RDMs and gets banned for a week, their karma does not get reset. Their karma never resets. They are forced to waste hours of time on our server for the sole purpose of being able to play again.
Of course, there's no karma penalty for baiting. If you bait someone who isn't particularly sharp and is just on the server to have fun, they're the one who loses out. Even if the damage logs show one person shooting another person once, that's not nearly enough to ban someone. The only time baiters get banned is when they do it so overtly and with every sort of carelessness that it's impossible not to notice. Our karma system offers nothing but sore punishment for those who lack what you thick-headed pricks try to pass off as "common sense," and fails to actually punish those who abuse it. The only solution to this problem is to have more active admins and VIPs. I don't know about the rest of whoever still has any sense of respect, but I'm not going to waste my time being the only one who cares about keeping the server as clean as possible.
Really, though. I'm not mad just for the sake of being mad. I'm mad because nobody has put forth an actual reason why our current karma system is more practical than the old one. If you can, then by all means do so. I'll take back this entire post in the morning all for the sake of one person being sensible.
Another thing though. Baiting isn't a bit deal if again, you have common sense and don't just shoot after any gunshot. It's likely that people will t-bait so think for a second and don't actually shoot to kill someone unless they're absolutely clearly doing the same and are damaging you. Let me remind you as well that baiting is actually more or less allowed. Depends on how the person is doing it and the circumstances, but it's not officially against the rules. I will ban people for traitor baiting sometimes though but only because people complain about it after losing karma because they can't keep themselves from shooting any person with the slightest excuse. Or simply can't think stuff through. So it's only to more or less calm other players down because it apparently "ruins the game" which I disagree with tbh. I don't personally care about traitor baiting. And yes, people do traitor bait me and it's annoying but it's simply a part of the game.T baiting ruins the gameplay more or less and it is very likely that everyone will lose their karma at least once because of it, besides, each player has different experiences and personalities meaning that for some people the T baiting could be very irritating.
And yes, people do traitor bait me and it's annoying but it's simply a part of the game....I really hate when people use that as a defense for something.
T baiting ruins the gameplay more or less and it is very likely that everyone will lose their karma at least once because of it, besides, each player has different experiences and personalities meaning that for some people the T baiting could be very irritating.Yes I understand that. It's shitty to work around too and I realize that but it's simply there and a part of the game, it's better to just work around it as it's really not that hard to do so.
...I really hate when people use that as a defense for something.Obviously it's not a good part of the game but it's entirely absolutely unavoidable. Even with temporary karma it is it just won't affect people quite as much I suppose. Still better to just suck it up and work around it though because it simply is what it is.
Yes, becuase in a game about finding the traitor among thieves, the people acting like retards and trying to get you to intentionally put a bullet in their head totally adds to the immersion.
Yes I understand that. It's shitty to work around too and I realize that but it's simply there and a part of the game, it's better to just work around it as it's really not that hard to do so.Are you saying that I'm a dumb ass and I blame others for shit I do wrong in-game?
It does help to have a different kind of interpretation of this too really. The way I think of it is that as I said yes it's shitty sometimes and can be annoying but it's virtually impossible to completely rid of in any case. So simply work around it and play the game smart. Don't just complain because you think it SHOULD be something else. That's basically the same mentality as the players who complain about people killing them without solid proof. "NO you're not allowed to do that! You didn't have any proof you didn't know it was me!" But in reality the player was simply extremely suspicious, might have walked past an unID'd body or something like that. Sure it sucks that you got killed before you expected to die, but it was due to your own mistakes. It's the same thing with karma baiting. Sure it sucks that you made a mistake and lost karma maybe even due to another player, but when it comes down to it it's almost always preventable by good judgement.
Honestly just thinking of things that way when playing keeps me calm but focused on the game. I just don't blame what happens to me on other players. I mean even when you have no one else to blame other than the player such as for full on first bood RDM with him clearly shooting to kill you. I still don't just sit there saying "Oh this fucking sucks, now I have to sit on my ass for 8 rounds just to get decent karma again." Instead I suck it up and just play like I normally do.
After all there's a reason the karma system was change and it wasn't because coolz just likes to fuck with everyone.Yes, it was because of a couple of threads about it, and now we have plenty of them.
Are you saying that I'm a dumb ass and I blame others for shit I do wrong in-game?Was absolutely more than a couple and it was hard for VIPs and admins to manage.
Yes, it was because of a couple of threads about it, and now we have plenty of them.
Was absolutely more than a couple and it was hard for VIPs and admins to manage.I'm not the one complaining about the karma system, I simply support this opinion because of all the threads that have already been made.
And no, I'm not sure if you're serious about that but I'm not meaning to insult/offend anyone or call them stupid. I'm simply saying good, calm and rational judgement can prevent literally everything everyone is complaining about aside from maybe full on first blood RDMers in some cases.
That whole situation is based off of common mistakes made by YOU though.
No no no no NO, these are common mistakes that EVERYBODY makes because they are HUMAN. To assume you're above human error isn't worth the fractions of the calories I'll burn typing.
Not everyone's going to sit on their ass and gain 35 karma per round and bitch about losing karma.
Unless they want to actually, you know, play the game.
If you actually play and shoot some traitors Deacon is absolutely right and you can get your karma back up without any trouble.
After shooting somebody and becoming about as useful as a sack of shit, do you think you would shoot ANYBODY unless they were to knife the Detective right in front of you?
Sabb, I'm not even going to quote your posts.That second line literally is what I was saying. One of gamefreak's arguments was that he feels the need to sit and simply more or less not do anything because he feels he will just end up losing more karma. That's mainly why I was saying they're HIS errors. People deal with it way different. I'm also not saying anyone's above human error I'm saying to get the fuck over it because it's not a big deal and isn't as hard as everyone says it is to get karma back up. However gamefreak himself I'm completely aware takes WAY too many chances in-game and due to that makes mistakes and loses karma for it. I've seen him do that plenty of times mainly when the server had temporary karma. There's nothing wrong with that I do the same you've simply got to be smart about it.
I love you. But your counter-arguments are dumb as shit, as anybody who reads over them can see.
I will now rip apart the only three sentences I read after Gamefreak's post, which should be absolutely impossible to refute because math.
Sabb, your entire argument consists of "You think the karma system is bad because you make bad decisions." I'm not even going to bother responding seriously to that. Deacon's scenario consists of managing to kill traitors every single round, which as I already said is an impossibly high standard. You don't just gain 250 karma in three rounds without being extremely lucky.Basically yes. The people who aren't careful in-game and are reckless with karma are the only ones who complain about it. If you just suck it up and play the karma system will hardly bother you and I can guarantee that. In reality yes you do make error sometimes I'm not saying that you shouldn't ever as it's inevitable. Except after that error it's more of a mix of both your's and Deacon's arguments. Sure your not going to kill a traitor every round most likely, but it's not going to take you the ridiculous amount of rounds to regain karma that you suggest it would either. Not if you actually just play the game as you normally would.
I really don't see why having low karma is so terrible any ways though. You simply have to shoot the player more for a bit until you get it up. Really not the end of the world and in no means should it ruin the entire game for you.Uh, define low. You're going to hardly hurt a fly against anyone if you have the lowest possible karma, especially when the other person has full/nearly full karma. So if it's a 1 on 1, both being armed with the same weapons, you're going to be fucked unless the opposing player has low health, enough where you actually stand a chance. That or he/she accidentally goes an hero off of a cliff or something. Plus you have to take into consideration if you suck at aiming or not and how good the other player is.
Uh, define low. You're going to hardly hurt a fly against anyone if you have the lowest possible karma, especially when the other person has full/nearly full karma. So if it's a 1 on 1, both being armed with the same weapons, you're going to be fucked unless the opposing player has low health, enough where you actually stand a chance. That or he/she accidentally goes an hero off of a cliff or something. Plus you have to take into consideration if you suck at aiming or not and how good the other player is.Well honestly it's usually very uncommon to get your karma to 100 without you completely fucking yourself over by your own doing and not really anyone else's. So usually the lowest I get or see people get is about 600 which really isn't all the bad. It's a little more challenging but keep in mind that all the other players experience the same thing and also often have low karma. Even when it's low enough that you simply can't kill someone, I don't see it's really that bad. Just run around with a flare gun or C4 and have some fun.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
i just killed 6 people as a t with 540 karma.
Seriously don't understand the gripes.
"It was a pump-action has to be Deacon.
Guys, it's gotta be Deacon.
It was a pump action guys.
It was Deaco-"
I knew too much
You'll see in the video i'm going to upload that I looked for you. Several times. LOLYou know what, ignore all of my previous statements. My opinion was wrong and I can admit that. I actually agree now and think that the karma system should really be changed. I really think low karma is BETTER. The game is legitimately so much more fun when you play with low karma. Playing with high karma is just easy to get a bunch of kills because usually everyone else has low karma any ways so you're basically just going to win no matter what. But with low karma it's a fun challenge. You actually have to work to kill someone not just shoot them once with a sniper and deagle whoever comes close.
Suppose its not good you know my habits, but meh.
This is why I don't see a problem with karma in general.
This picture is a placeholder for the video that is yet to come.
(http://filesmelt.com/dl/karma_aint_shit.png)
karma_dont_mean_SHIT.wmv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scmshCD9bOM#ws)This is seriously the perfect example. Clearly it was a challenge as a traitor with such low karma but you still managed to kill a lot of people and simply have a lot of fun. This is really simply how I think the game should be. It might not totally be intended to be played this way, but it would be extremely fun in my opinion and I think will please everyone once they give it a try.
And, the video in question. Clearly effective with half damage. Had more fun on this round than in a LONG time playing TTT
That is the worst TTT suggestion I've heard in a while. Seriously, -400 karma EVERY MAP CHANGE? Are you nuts?! There's no way that more then 30% of the players will ever obtain more then 400 per each map which means that eventually their karma will be stuck at 10 forever. And even those who will be able to, if they make a mistake or two, then the same thing will happen to them. Please, for the sake of gameplay do not apply this coolz.
That is the worst TTT suggestion I've heard in a while. Seriously, -400 karma EVERY MAP CHANGE? Are you nuts?! There's no way that more then 30% of the players will ever obtain more then 400 per each map which means that eventually their karma will be stuck at 10 forever. And even those who will be able to, if they make a mistake or two, then the same thing will happen to them. Please, for the sake of gameplay do not apply this coolz.But that's the point. Everyone will remain around the same level of extremely low karma so it should be far more fun and really eliminate any potential issues having to do with karma such as baiting.
That was sarcasmThat's not the point... He still managed to have loads of fun with low karma and was able to kill players fine. Basically why I think having -400 karma per map change is a really good idea.
And deacon, almost everyone in that video you killed was either a terrible player, or were paranoid as fuck
i just killed 6 people as a t with 540 karma.
Seriously don't understand the gripes.
Sabb is right you guys. i just proved that you don't need 1000 karma to be effective. seriously. you should have to gain your karma because then you won't lose it on all the rdmers. starting at 4 means everyone is equal and if you accidently kill someone you won't jose much
Just because you can do something doesn't mean that everyone else should be expected to. If you think that I'm wrong in saying that, then you're a sad human being and I pity you.
Sabb, I honestly hope that's sarcasm.I don't really see why someone wouldn't like it though. There's really no reason to complain that I can think of at least. I honestly just think that it would please the majority of players, definitely not to lose any players. I think you'd have to play it for yourself to understand what I'm trying to say really.
That will lose so many players and prevent further new players who are used to other normal-karma'd TTT servers to continue to play on RND TTT, unless there's an extremely low chance that they like it.
You are not seriously suggesting that I think I am better than any of you at this game. I'm not better than anyone, at any game. That's the point of me saying that.
Don't mind me though, I'll just live my sad life and be pitied by someone who clearly can't see the other side of the coin.
I never said that, if you read my post. You seem to be saying that you can do well with low karma, which means that everyone else can too.
I just showed that a player of any sort can still be effective. Which is exactly what you guys are arguing is the problem with karma loss. I'm not saying that, I'm showing it. I took the time to prove it. You can no longer say "With low karma, you can't kill anyone" because with half karma, I showed you can still be effective.
Your turn.
>hey i can do it why can't anybody elseThe fact that you -1'd Deacon's post and posted this pretty much pisses me off.
Deacon, the core of each of your posts is you saying that YOU are an effective player even with low karma.
I don't really see why someone wouldn't like it though. There's really no reason to complain that I can think of at least. I honestly just think that it would please the majority of players, definitely not to lose any players. I think you'd have to play it for yourself to understand what I'm trying to say really.But for the side of attracting new players to RND?
The fact that you -1'd Deacon's post and posted this pretty much pisses me off.Well, deacon really wasn't making a valid point. Unless someone took a poll for fun with low karma to further continue the karma discussion here, it's not going to be the same for every player.
I think at this point everyone needs to shut up and leave the decision to coolz.
But for the side of attracting new players to RND?Yes, in my opinion, he was.
New potential players are going to come along, find out about perma karma, find out about the -400 karma every map change, say "What the fuck is the server owner retarded or something?", and disconnect to go find another server to play one. I highly doubt a good amount of new players will stick around, being used to other normal karma servers, go on ours, register an account for the forums and read about the decisions and arguments about the karma system...to agree and stay with us. Maybe one or two might do that, but out of the whole TTT hungry gmod population? It's not going to work very well.
Well, deacon really wasn't making a valid point. Unless someone took a poll for fun with low karma to further continue the karma discussion here, it's not going to be the same for every player.
Yes, in my opinion, he was.Well if they're hopping around server to server, especially right from normal servers with the normal karma system implemented, a good first impression that most of them are going to make is that the perma karma is pretty stupid, like a great sum of us did at first. But as for them, they'll end up disconnecting and joining a different server probably with the default karma system. If they find out about the perma karma on the map change, along with your suggestion, they'll really think it's stupid (in their perspective) that your karma stays with map changes.
And the karma shit I'm not saying they're going to do any of that? I'm saying they're going to play and end up finding it to be far more fun, as I'm sure that you would too.
Well if they're hopping around server to server, especially right from normal servers with the normal karma system implemented, a good first impression that most of them are going to make is that the perma karma is pretty stupid, like a great sum of us did at first. But as for them, they'll end up disconnecting and joining a different server probably with the default karma system. If they find out about the perma karma on the map change, along with your suggestion, they'll really think it's stupid (in their perspective) that your karma stays with map changes.I really don't see that happening though. If anything the complete opposite. Maybe 1 or 2 people NOT enjoying it.
Of course 2 or 3 players may like the fact that karma stays permanent, but will probably end up quitting if coolz implemented your idea, knowing that their hard earned karma depletes with map changes anyway.
Deacon, the core of each of your posts is you saying that YOU are an effective player even with low karma.
I just showed that a player of any sort can still be effective. Which is exactly what you guys are arguing is the problem with karma loss. I'm not saying that, I'm showing it. I took the time to prove it. You can no longer say "With low karma, you can't kill anyone" because with half karma, I showed you can still be effective.
I really don't see that happening though. If anything the complete opposite. Maybe 1 or 2 people NOT enjoying it.Here, think of it this way:
THE CORE OF THIS POST IS THAT YOU DO A DECENT ENOUGH AMOUNT OF DAMAGE WITH LOW KARMA.
Here, think of it this way:Obviously in my opinion I think my suggestion is better so we're really not going to get anywhere here. There' no point in arguing it because it's just opinion. Not at all fact in any way. Personal, possibly even biased, opinion.
We have xXCuntDestroyerXx. He loves to play TTT. He frequents popular TTT servers with normal karma systems. Those servers probably keep the normal karma because they don't have the rdming/trolling problem we do. He stumbles upon our RND server with perma karma + your karma idea. He doesn't know about either until the next map, where he notices his karma was significantly lower.
He'll ask the frequent players, and they'll tell him about the system and blablabla insert reasons here.
And this is where our views conflict.
With mine, he'll say "My karma is permanent and I lose 300 every map change? Who's fucking bright idea was that? Fuck this shit."
xXCuntDestroyerXx disconnects. He wont stick around long enough to think of the reasons and if he agrees with them.
With yours, he'll say "Wow, this system really helps against the baiters and rdmers, I think I'll like it here."
He stays and becomes regular.
Which one is generally going to happen first?
Obviously in my opinion I think my suggestion is better so we're really not going to get anywhere here. There' no point in arguing it because it's just opinion. Not at all fact in any way. Personal, possibly even biased, opinion.
Obviously in my opinion I think my suggestion is better so we're really not going to get anywhere here. There' no point in arguing it because it's just opinion. Not at all fact in any way. Personal, possibly even biased, opinion.Well you can only go so far with an opinion until you have to take common sense into consideration...
I'm gonna need two guns for the levels of herp in this post.Na, open for discussion. Different viewpoint doesn't = lock. Bash my post to the best of your ability.
Lock, before it gets worse.
FUCK, NIGGER
There is no reason for you to insult me like this, and I will not stand for it again.
YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO A DECENT AMOUNT OF DAMAGE
What difference is it if <emphasis>I</emphasis> shoot someone with 540 karma (a 54% damage reduction)
vs.
Everyone else?
You aren't going to do different amounts of damage. It can't happen.
Therefore, as a matter of indisputable fact, we will do the same. EVERY SINGLE PLAYER will do the same, if they have that amount of karma.
BUT THAT'S NOT EXACTLY A COMMON ABILITY THAT EVERYBODY CAN UTILIZE.
Point, shoot. Seems pretty common to me. The only difference is that I'm willing to work with what I've got.
Lets pull this apart and see whats happening.
NOW THEN.
Objections?
ima cri
EDIT: You're missing my point COMPLETELY. I completely forgot you disliked that word and I'll say I'm sorry for it, but what I am saying is NOT EVERYBODY IS AS SKILLED AS YOU.
And you're misconstruing mine. My point was never "look how good I am", it was "look how much damage someone with shitty karma can do".
Yes, I got lucky ALOT; thats not the point. Are you saying we need to make it easier to aim, because that is the only problem (and you can see I'm not very good at that in the first place).
The argument that you HAVE to work your karma back up to 800 before you can play is wrong; you can play, quite effectively more often that not, if you just accept your loss and work it like a handicap.
The entire point of making karma more lenient is so that you don't have to work with a handicap just for one or two mistakes.
That, and the fact that baiting would become pointless and gradually become replaced with a slight to moderate increase in RDM, which is easier to manage.
A karma change isn't really a necessity. You and others have spent the entire thread arguing that heavy karma losses can be worked with, and I respect that. Headshots from a deagle become lethal at around 640 karma, and scout headshots are somewhat more forgiving. I've done it before.
However, that's not the point of this. Although a change isn't necessary, it would certainly help. The game can be fun with strict karma if you have common sense, but if only people with common sense played on the server at all we wouldn't have a playerbase. We want the game to be fun for everyone, not just those who are willing to "work" for it. That's why it's a game. People don't come to TTT to "accept" their losses, they come to have FUN.
And if the idea of fun is to play a game in which all you do is kill, why are you playing a game in which you are supposed to die to help your team win?
...what?
The entire gamemode is based around killing. Points are assigned based on traitors killed while innocent, and innocents killed while traitor. You don't get points for dying. Am I missing something?
Yes.
Karma is not gained as a traitor, you just earn your standard round gain.
In order to determine traitors in the first place, it is necessary for one to die. Ergo, dying helps your team.
Dying may help the traitor to be found, but the objective isn't to die. You're supposed to hope someone else dies so you can find the traitor and kill them
so you don't want to die, just your teammates?
If you die as traitor without buying anything your traitor teammates can get extra credits. That "helps" your team, but that doesn't mean that as soon as a traitor round comes your priority is to suicide.
That is the functionality of giving your credits. Also, not the argument here.
The main objective of both teams is, ultimately, to kill.
And in order to get there, most of your team will die. I'm not arguing that the point is to instantly get killed, but getting killed is an integral step to completing a round.
Speaking of karma gained as traitor, there should be extra karma gain as traitor. Even if we keep the current karma, there should at least be a way to redeem yourself with a good traitor round.
Would encourage teaming, which I believe is why it is disabled.
This thread is so silly.
I think we can all agree that aside from being a Traitor, having low karma is hardly any fun. I generally am Traitor only once per map.
So lets say I witness someone kill three people, or perhaps someone throw an incendiary into a crowded room, maybe even shoot the detective several times, or if I get attacked out of the blue. Being the skillful-sometimes player I am I go out and I kill them because that obviously was a Traitorous act! But oh wait, they were an Innocent and they left a minute after they died! Now I have low karma and can't really do shit against Traitors.
That is the biggest problem I have with the system, right there. RDMers.
RDMers!
Can I please lose a lot less karma when I kill an Innocent who leaves two minutes after their death but before the round ends?
There is no way to determine that.
Hey, hey. How about we have both perma karma and temp karma servers running at the same time? Lock and sticky the thread for the time being and we can reopen the debate later when we have actual scenarios instead of arguing the implausibilities of the hypotheticalHow about we let travelsonic make the call on locking...since it's his thread ya know.
I'm only going to lock it if Travel asks me to. Or if it turns into a completely shitstorm type deal.
Sonic shouldnt be able just to close the thread on a whim anymore. The arguments have pretty much gone personal and it would make more sense if impartial mods decided when it would be the right time to lock instead of OP feeling that, "omg, I feel bad now for destroying the community with my thread...."na
na
There's really nothing wrong with the thread. RND debate.
I don't necessarily want to lock this thread but I want to say that I have considered the scenarios and that the permanent karma system will stay.does that mean you wont remove 400 karma per map change
The system helps prevent end round RDM as well as provide some sort of incentive for those who want to work for their 1000 karma.
However, I am considering changes to lessen the karma loss (but not increase the gain).
A little while before I shutdown the servers in February I joined TTT quite a few times to really get a fresh feel for the system and game play.
During that time I didn't find a problem with the system personally. Even if I made a mistake I would stick it through and get my karma score back up fairly quickly. However I understand not all players are the same and that it might be appropriate for small modifications to karma loss.
I have not yet decided on the exact amount change but I don't believe it needs to be that drastic.
does that mean you wont remove 400 karma per map changeThat would really be a bad decision if he did.
One of the biggest things that pisses me off:
It SEEMS like this scenario exists:
Hill RDMer -> karma drops -> work to rebuild karma -> get karma really high -> kill another RDMer, same fashion as before, same reason -> karma drops 2-3x as much.
Seriously, it feels like after rebuilding your karma, killing another teammate RDMing or not, gets you hit with a double whammy, and it pisses me off. I didn't rebuild my karma for it to drop 2-3x as fast for killing a high karma RDMer in the same fashion as what caused it to drop in the first place.
EDIT: And can we stop acting like perma, temp karma is the only frame of debate this can take, the only area that is/can be discussed on this matter, permakarma or not is irrelevant, it is the values for gain or loss, REGARDLESS of permakarma or not, that is making me, and others, royally pissed.