Author Topic: Clarification of rules regarding killing out of suspicion  (Read 297 times)

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Offline Tezuni

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Re: Clarification of rules regarding killing out of suspicion
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2015, 01:32:31 AM »
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Do you see the discrepancy here? Nevermind that you changed your analogy from Overwatch to kicking people in TTT, which are two other completely different things, but in that round you threatened to kick me for making a vaguely rude joke at worst. You even go completely silent in the video when Deathie calls you out on it, which tells me you're aware that it's unjustified and you don't care. You even shot me because of a false KoS from the traitor without asking a single question or checking any bodies, which is also completely opposite to the way you've been saying we should all play in this thread. It's really obvious that you making this thread has almost nothing to do with actual fairness, and more to do with you wanting to vindicate yourself after pushing the issue to an embarrassing extent.
Everyone knows how blatantly rude you are, calling people "autists" constantly saying x person has x IQ level, etc.  Quite frankly, you do deserve to be demoted from regular rank.  Mono would have been more than justified to kick you.  Nice short clip.

Offline TehHank

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Re: Clarification of rules regarding killing out of suspicion
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2015, 03:02:59 AM »
+3
Everyone knows how blatantly rude you are, calling people "autists" constantly saying x person has x IQ level, etc.  Quite frankly, you do deserve to be demoted from regular rank.  Mono would have been more than justified to kick you.  Nice short clip.
I don't understand this logic, apparently everyone here takes Ursus' insults literally? what are we still in Kindergarten?

I believe that because of the fickle nature of this problem, here is my proposal for a solution:  When someone kills a traitor under questionable circumstances, he should have to explain his reasoning, and the members present should decide whether or not it was a valid reason.  If it was a valid enough reason, the subject may continue as is.  However, if there was INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE, the subject gets a warning.  From then on during the session, if the subject breaks any rules or has another questionable kill reviewed as INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE, he gets kicked.  If the subject returns and continues his/her pattern, they get a temporary ban, and so on.
Jesus this isn't the court of law, you just need a bit of common sense to determine if killing a traitor without concrete proof is not RDM depending on the circumstances.

We are at a point where most people who play have played TTT so much, a sense of Paranoia sets in which we question everything other players do and acting on your own instincts isn't RDM. Of course blatantly crying out you thought it was them when you just went on a killing spree isn't the case, but now that I've firsthand experienced how some other players play the game nowadays, i enjoy this extra depth of mistrust. I'm more inclined to believe that monorail is asserting the game situation as if the server is full of fairly new TTT goers in which their instinct isn't as defined as a server filled with experienced players knowing each other.

And when was it relevant in the rules that being a douche bag is against the rules. I'm more inclined you think that a majority of people dislike Ursus to point in which everyone will breath a sigh of relief if you do actually kick him for a reason that doesn't make any sense.

I know we need to have rules, but remember this is still a game where people make mistakes. Applying more rules will just make the game more Robotic and uniform to the point where the games isn't fun.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 03:28:32 AM by TehHank »

Offline Cable

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Re: Clarification of rules regarding killing out of suspicion
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2015, 04:11:12 AM »
+1
And when was it relevant in the rules that being a douche bag is against the rules.

Offline Monorail Cat

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Re: Clarification of rules regarding killing out of suspicion
« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2015, 04:17:45 AM »
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The way you worded it sounded like you straight up said "HE RDMED ME ADD RULE ABOUT THIS PLS" was just a tad silly. TTT is about taking risks, finding out who the traitor is, and who isn't.
Sorry for the confusion, but I brought up this issue because this has been happening very frequently to not just me.  I'm not discussing a single case about me being RDM'd.


Why do only innocents have to explain themselves?
Usually, the killers of traitors are not other traitors. 


Is our server a courtroom? You are literally suggesting to ban everyone and anyone who chooses to play the game on a more complex level than you'd like. If you were saying this because you want to crack down on ghosting, sure, but all I read here is "I don't like it when people play the game better than me, and the only way I can solve this problem is by punishing them outside of the game." Just make a conscious effort to be a smarter traitor.
I'm not saying that it should be a "courtroom", I'm just saying that when someone gets killed under circumstances that people believe is questionable, the members decide whether or not the claim is reasonable evidence.  This would prevent the server from having a clear-cut set of rules for these scenarios (which I agree, would make the game more "robotic" and stale), and it would leave it to the members present to determine the outcome.  I believe this could be a good solution.

It's also a ludicrous claim that I am "suggesting to ban everyone and anyone who chooses to play the game on a more complex level than I'd like".  There's nothing more I have to say about that.

I would also like to apologize for my wording in my previous post.  I do not mean to suggest that this "review" takes any longer than a few seconds of discussion.  The rest of that was pretty much the regular line of events if someone is breaking a rule. 

And please stop bringing "skill" into this.  I'm not irritated about people playing at what may be "a higher level" than mine, I'm irritated about being killed without good enough proof.  Check my previous post where I discussed that issue.


It's a playstyle that's very obviously associated with me, and you're trying to get it outlawed because you'd rather change the rules of the game than adapt to it.
I have adapted to it, but that doesn't mean I agree with it.  I usually try to avoid you as much as possible in-game, because I know you have correctly guessed the traitor before they do something traitorous several times.


Spoiler: video (click to show/hide)
I was threatening to kick you because you had been taunting me and Tezuni for several rounds (not just that one in the video), antagonizing us, even saying at some points that you would RDM me, which I considered to be breaking the rule disrespecting other players. 


Offline Monorail Cat

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Re: Clarification of rules regarding killing out of suspicion
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2015, 04:20:57 AM »
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I'm more inclined to believe that monorail is asserting the game situation as if the server is full of fairly new TTT goers in which their instinct isn't as defined as a server filled with experienced players knowing each other.

I know we need to have rules, but remember this is still a game where people make mistakes. Applying more rules will just make the game more Robotic and uniform to the point where the games isn't fun.

I admit that when caught up with this ordeal, I was worried about new players being repelled by harsh gameplay, but it's really pretty negligible.

I also agree with the fact that too many rules make the game more "robotic".  Refer to my previous post.


Offline TehHank

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Re: Clarification of rules regarding killing out of suspicion
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2015, 04:22:06 AM »
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I was threatening to kick you because you had been taunting me and Tezuni for several rounds (not just that one in the video), antagonizing us, even saying at some points that you would RDM me, which I considered to be breaking the rule disrespecting other players.

It would be breaking the rules if you actually muted him and he continued harassing you two through text chat. But then both of you have to realize he wouldn't do that and has no malicious intent.

Again not pointing fingers but a lot of decisions in this particular type of game mode is based around initiative.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 04:24:25 AM by TehHank »

Offline Deathie

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Re: Clarification of rules regarding killing out of suspicion
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2015, 06:39:03 AM »
+1
I was threatening to kick you because you had been taunting me and Tezuni for several rounds (not just that one in the video), antagonizing us, even saying at some points that you would RDM me, which I considered to be breaking the rule disrespecting other players. 

He has a full demo for that round, the previous maps, and the next maps.

I was there for a while and he wasn't really even doing anything. IIRC you had just joined a round before that one. I remember being super confused because I thought my false KOS was what got you upset.

"Antagonizing you" isn't even how I'd describe it. He was only egging you on to the point of "come on, shoot me!".

It's also a ludicrous claim that I am "suggesting to ban everyone and anyone who chooses to play the game on a more complex level than I'd like".  There's nothing more I have to say about that.

And please stop bringing "skill" into this.  I'm not irritated about people playing at what may be "a higher level" than mine, I'm irritated about being killed without good enough proof.

When you understand the intricacies of the gamemode enough and you build that hard intuition, you're able to make really accurate judgements like that.

You trying to argue that it's not good enough proof is flat out not true. You might have some validity if the issue was innocents killing other innocents on "hunches", but that's not even the reason you made the thread in the first place. That'd be flat out RDM and you wouldn't even need to ask "is this against the rules". The only reason you're questioning it is because it's only happening to traitors.

Like, 1/4 players are traitors. If it was actually RDM, it wouldn't be traitors dying the majority of the time.


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Offline ursus

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Re: Clarification of rules regarding killing out of suspicion
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2015, 10:18:27 AM »
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I was threatening to kick you because you had been taunting me and Tezuni for several rounds (not just that one in the video), antagonizing us, even saying at some points that you would RDM me, which I considered to be breaking the rule disrespecting other players. 

Are you literally in kindergarten? Any kind of joke must be an antagonistic insult to you if you think I was taunting you both to the point of harassment. Even if I were directly insulting you, it's completely indefensible to use your VIP powers for the in-game equivalent of "Y-YOU'RE MEAN YOU CANT PLAY WITH US ANYMORE" when I'm just poking fun at you for being unreasonable in the first place.

Also, if you had threatened to kick me for literally any reason you knew was valid, you would have said what it was without any hesitation when deathie asked you directly. Instead, you immediately shut up because the conflict was personal and you knew that. I "taunted" you in that demo because you shot me first with absolutely no evidence, something you apparently hate very very much except for when you're shooting someone you don't like. Not just that, but you had only joined the server about one round before that. You hadn't been on the server for at least 8 prior map changes, which is several hours.


I'm not saying that it should be a "courtroom", I'm just saying that when someone gets killed under circumstances that people believe is questionable, the members decide whether or not the claim is reasonable evidence.  This would prevent the server from having a clear-cut set of rules for these scenarios (which I agree, would make the game more "robotic" and stale), and it would leave it to the members present to determine the outcome.  I believe this could be a good solution.

Nobody is suggesting to make the rules less clear except for you. This would be a horrible solution, because it would allow emotionally fragile VIPs like you and Tezuni to ban anyone who kills them for what you decide is an unjustified reason and avoid getting demoted for it. What if the "members" are just you and tez? If you're going to threaten to kick over things as small as jokes you think are insulting, how can anyone believe you won't kick someone who embarrasses you when you miss your first shot? How many 0-kill T rounds will you have before you kick the first person to make fun of you for "continued harassment" or another made-up reason like that and then ragequit? Nobody would even question it if you just put "douchebag" in the reason for sourcebans, and I think you'd love to be able to take advantage of that.

You trying to argue that it's not good enough proof is flat out not true. You might have some validity if the issue was innocents killing other innocents on "hunches", but that's not even the reason you made the thread in the first place. That'd be flat out RDM and you wouldn't even need to ask "is this against the rules". The only reason you're questioning it is because it's only happening to traitors.

Like, 1/4 players are traitors. If it was actually RDM, it wouldn't be traitors dying the majority of the time.

Offline Monorail Cat

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Re: Clarification of rules regarding killing out of suspicion
« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2015, 01:16:28 PM »
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Are you literally in kindergarten? Any kind of joke must be an antagonistic insult to you if you think I was taunting you both to the point of harassment. Even if I were directly insulting you, it's completely indefensible to use your VIP powers for the in-game equivalent of "Y-YOU'RE MEAN YOU CANT PLAY WITH US ANYMORE" when I'm just poking fun at you for being unreasonable in the first place.

Also, if you had threatened to kick me for literally any reason you knew was valid, you would have said what it was without any hesitation when deathie asked you directly. Instead, you immediately shut up because the conflict was personal and you knew that. I "taunted" you in that demo because you shot me first with absolutely no evidence, something you apparently hate very very much except for when you're shooting someone you don't like. Not just that, but you had only joined the server about one round before that. You hadn't been on the server for at least 8 prior map changes, which is several hours.


Nobody is suggesting to make the rules less clear except for you. This would be a horrible solution, because it would allow emotionally fragile VIPs like you and Tezuni to ban anyone who kills them for what you decide is an unjustified reason and avoid getting demoted for it. What if the "members" are just you and tez? If you're going to threaten to kick over things as small as jokes you think are insulting, how can anyone believe you won't kick someone who embarrasses you when you miss your first shot? How many 0-kill T rounds will you have before you kick the first person to make fun of you for "continued harassment" or another made-up reason like that and then ragequit? Nobody would even question it if you just put "douchebag" in the reason for sourcebans, and I think you'd love to be able to take advantage of that.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Back to the issue at hand, I was suggesting for there to be less "clear-cut" rules, because I thought that was the problem:
I know we need to have rules, but remember this is still a game where people make mistakes. Applying more rules will just make the game more Robotic and uniform to the point where the games isn't fun.
I've played on servers that used a rule like that and you want to know how the game play happened? basically everyone circle jerking around the detective until he said you can kill this person... no thanks was no fun at all..
Now i agree that killing out of suspicion in the rulebook is too vague, and we need to change it, to a more understanding and defined rule. The rule itself doesn't need to include what counts as suspicion, but it should include an example that we have all seen, to state the issue of the rule.
By imposing an arbitrary set of rules like "are following someone else", "appear to be aiming at people's heads", and "dropping a weapon which was the same type as what killed another player", you're restricting the skill ceiling of the game immensely.

From what I gathered, it seemed that the general consensus was that people don't want more rules, because there are so many scenarios that thing will happen in, and also because it would make the game less fun and more stale, or "robotic".  I was attempting a diplomatic solution so that we would know what to do in the various scenarios this can occur in.

Now for the theory that "Tezuni and I" will vote someone off:  This will probably never happen, because chances are, there would be many more members than just Tezuni and I on.  Everyone above the rank of Regular has a say in the votes, so if everyone agrees that there was enough of a reason to kill someone else, it's fine.  If people agree that it was fishy, it follows the general guidelines for someone breaking rules- they get warnings, then kicks, then bans and reports. 


I really do want this to be solved.  I don't want to keep bickering and talking about the ordeal, because that won't get us anywhere anymore; we've said all we have to say.  I think we should start working on a solution, which is why I proposed this. 

I would also like everyone to know that I'm not dead-set on any certain objective- I'm willing to change my mind (At first I wanted "the line to be drawn:  When do you need to have enough "proof" in suspicions in order to kill someone?"  I have realized that it's not a popular idea, so I adapted to what I think people want, and suggested my current solution.).  I made this thread because I myself am uncertain on the rule.  I am open to any solutions, and I'd like to discuss this with everyone in a civil manner.


Offline Ἆxule

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Re: Clarification of rules regarding killing out of suspicion
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2015, 01:29:08 PM »
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When I played TTT, during rNd and on other servers, I played very much with the same style as ursus. I almost always acted on instinct from playing TTT for 3-4 years. You learn to pick up a lot of subtle things, especially when you play with the same players for months. I could go into detail as to what some of these "subtle" things are, but most have been mentioned somewhere throughout this thread, so I'll save the redundancy.

I played TTT for the thrill of the gamble. It's not fun at all to play with 100% certainty of anything, because most of the time it would be too late to act or someone else would have gotten the traitor before me. Personally, both scenarios were extremely frustrating for me, more so than being RDMd on my T round. I preferred the exhilaration and gamble of catching something before anyone else, and being right in that gamble. I knew the risks, and I was willing to lose it all for the gratification of being right. I cannot explain the high I would get off of that adrenaline rush.

Of course, because I played this way, I expected the same from everyone else. I rarely complained when I would get killed as a Traitor if their reasoning was the same I would use. For example, in the scenario that was brought up in the beginning of this thread by Monorail, as an Innocent I would have acted the same way. My thought process would be that you know who shot first, which was most likely the traitor. If you proceeded to just watch, and if the person who shot first was the Traitor, I would take that risk in thinking you were just playing dumb. If I were in your position, I would have no problem being killed for that reason.

Offline ursus

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Re: Clarification of rules regarding killing out of suspicion
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2015, 09:02:10 PM »
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I left my computer for a day and realized that this is the most pointless argument I've ever started in my entire life

this thread is bad and I should feel bad

someone bother coolz until he clarifies the rules and locks this pls

Offline Monorail Cat

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Re: Clarification of rules regarding killing out of suspicion
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2015, 09:39:04 PM »
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I left my computer for a day and realized that this is the most pointless argument I've ever started in my entire life

this thread is bad and I should feel bad

someone bother coolz until he clarifies the rules and locks this pls

Agreed.  It was stupid, I was exhausted and tired.  Apologies.  Let's just get this decided.


Offline Cable

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Re: Clarification of rules regarding killing out of suspicion
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2015, 10:41:50 PM »
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locked
-until further notice
« Last Edit: October 03, 2015, 01:00:58 PM by Cable »