.:`=-~rANdOm~`-=:. Game Servers (Read Only) > Discussion

New Gender Options for Facebook Users

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Frank:

--- Quote from: Prox on February 15, 2014, 03:14:13 PM ---The rights of minorities should be considered and respected but the rights of majority shouldn't be questioned.

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OOOOOOOOOOH BOOOOOOOOOOOOY. How does this change your rights AT ALL?

ursus:

--- Quote from: Prox on February 15, 2014, 03:14:13 PM ---Good God I have never thought that a day would come when someone would use such terms as cis-gender and genderqueer seriously on these forums.
It definitely isn't. Each gender has different physique as well as different hormones which directly result in males being "strong, working, an authority, fatherly, limiting" and females being "delicate, motherly, emotional, tender".
Young boys play with toy cars and girls play with dolls not because they're being thought to do this because it is their "gender role" but because that's what their own mind which is effected by certain hormones tell them to.
You can also just take a look at the animal kingdom too, even the genders of the least intelligent animals operate the same way and share same differences between them because of different hormones.
If anything, a room full of "cis-people" is the most qualified to discuss gender.

This is the only reason you need to know in order be sure that there can be only two genders.

No they can't, the can be considered as having a disorder.
I really don't even know how I should even properly respond to this argument of yours. The fact that gender cannot change is obvious even to a 12 year old.
Do you really think that it's a good idea to let minorities change our definition of things just so it would appeal to them? The rights of minorities should be considered and respected but the rights of majority shouldn't be questioned.

How can people not realize and understand something as basic as the fact that there are only two genders? I know I'm going to use a strawman for this but seriously this is as basic as the fact that Earth revolves around the Sun. I just cannot comprehend how some people think that there are more genders then just male and female, this is just beyond stupid.

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uh

have you seen what happens when young girls/boys ask to have things that are for the opposite gender? people don't respond very kindly at all

gender is enforced on people whether they like it or not, and you're honestly going to say that everyone chooses these things naturally? a lot of people would like to hold different positions in society or in their personal lives but can't because it would go outside the bounds of what's expected of them as a man/woman

how is a room full of cis people most qualified to discuss gender? i literally just explained to you why understanding this issue for a non-trans person is so difficult and you're asserting out of nowhere that you, with no actual education on the subject, are most qualified to speak about this


--- Quote ---This is the only reason you need to know in order be sure that there can be only two genders.

No they can't, the can be considered as having a disorder.
--- End quote ---

again, what?

what constitutes a "disorder" to you?

if hormones and social context determine gender and  both of those things are subject to variation, how can you say gender is still logically restricted to a binary system? if I have blue paint, yellow paint, and red paint and i only mix the yellow and blue to make green, does that mean that it's literally impossible for me to make orange or purple? just because the overwhelming majority of people fall into one of two classifications and are often forced into them does not mean that any change in this is some kind of disease. are you just under the impression that transgender people don't exist?

i've spoken to multiple non-binary people who have explained their background and experiences and, given the stunning rates at which people like them are murdered around the world, there's absolutely no reason why someone would even think of choosing this kind of life unless it was completely sincere and necessary to their mental health


--- Quote ---Do you really think that it's a good idea to let minorities change our definition of things just so it would appeal to them? The rights of minorities should be considered and respected but the rights of majority shouldn't be questioned.
--- End quote ---

in what way are your rights being threatened? do you have a basic human right to call people "transfaggots" because their gender identity is foreign to you? you're literally saying that the rights of minorities are here for "consideration," as if they're simply an option that the privileged majority may grant at their convenience

this is a serious question, I honestly want you to show me at least one concrete example of how respecting the identities of trans people and implementing laws to protect their basic safety and rights is somehow going to infringe upon your rights so much that it shouldn't even be considered.

is your only reason that it's just "stupid" to you? you're literally looking at a group of people who have had their identities erased, rights withheld, and their lives put in danger for centuries simply because they defy normal expectations and you're thinking "no, this is stupid and wrong"

the reason and the ONLY reason that you are seeing so much increased media attention now is that prior to this decade, anyone who tried to live this kind of life would be murdered or shunned from their society within weeks. transgender and queer people in say, the 1500s would not be accepted at all and since there was no way for them to find other people who fit into such a small demographic, they went largely unnoticed and/or killed outright until a time where information and discourse could be shared instantly across the world. do you honestly think a minority with such a history of abuse, murder and hatred directed towards them would continue to fight just because they want to challenge authority and stand out?

Sabb:
All I'm going to say is that if someone has an issue associating themselves specifically with a male or female gender, I feel that's for them to deal with and in most cases we don't need to know. Having these options on Facebook as I said seems unnecessary to me but I don't really care. It bothers me when people push to entirely change how the word is used, and that eventually people are going to have a separate page on job applications and any documentation for 500 genders. In that case I hope you'd agree that it would be unnecessary.

ursus:

--- Quote from: Sabb on February 15, 2014, 05:55:38 PM ---All I'm going to say is that if someone has an issue associating themselves specifically with a male or female gender, I feel that's for them to deal with and in most cases we don't need to know. Having these options on Facebook as I said seems unnecessary to me but I don't really care. It bothers me when people push to entirely change how the word is used, and that eventually people are going to have a separate page on job applications and any documentation for 500 genders. In that case I hope you'd agree that it would be unnecessary.

--- End quote ---

the reason being, when the gender binary is integrated so deeply and aggressively into everyday life combining that with severe gender dysphoria can make life a living hell for trans people

it's not that you need to know every detail of their issues, it's that you need to understand the nature of their experiences and in turn have enough basic common decency to, say, refer to someone as "they" instead of "she" without having to be directly asked multiple times because you saw on facebook that they specifically set their gender to non-binary and that they/them pronouns are what they're comfortable with

i think where most people interpret the issue incorrectly is that they see trans people in particular being very vocal and outspoken about their problems while simultaneously defying their held notions about what gender even is, and that in itself is just kind of irritating and induces a lot of cognitive dissonance because nobody likes being accused of supporting the oppression of a minority group

but, once you realize that they literally aren't able to live normal lives because of the stigma and institutionally encouraged hatred against them, it becomes clear that the best solution is to hurry up and get people to let go of their irrational prejudices so that trans people and other minorities really CAN live their normal day-to-day lives without having to be constantly reminded or constantly remind others of their unique problems

if you actually had any friends or talked to any people on good terms who were transgender, you would realize that the in-your-face angry yelling type of activism is mostly just a facade that gets put on simply because they're so desperate and exasperated from trying so hard to be taken seriously and still get ignored; once you get past that then they're pretty much average people who have normal interests and have no real problem with cis people on an individual scale

what's more, language and words change all the time and many words that you use quite frequently were literally invented by shakespeare and a few of them were coined in the last century, so it's not exactly far-fetched or even hard to believe at all that the meaning of a word like "gender" could be expanded (the fact that there are two separate words for gender and sex should tip you off to this, but most people use them interchangeably)

also, why would you need a separate page for gender on a job application? you could literally just have a box to write your gender in, and if a potential employer doesn't know what it is one could explain it to them in less than five minutes easily. i feel like at this point you're blowing the entire issue out of proportion and almost making problems up to excuse not changing such a small part of your behavior

Sabb:

--- Quote from: ursus on February 15, 2014, 06:58:19 PM ---i feel like at this point you're blowing the entire issue out of proportion and almost making problems up to excuse not changing such a small part of your behavior

--- End quote ---
Before I address anything you've said, I'd like to point out something about your behaviour. Everyone seems to be afraid to openly express how they feel about one another here I guess because it's an open forum and that opens up a door for them to be attacked by others. However I'd like to be honest and point out the aggression you throw into your posts, which bring these kinds of discussions to a personal level.
 
--- Quote from: ursus on February 15, 2014, 01:06:42 PM ---does anyone on this forum actually know like, anything about gender

except maybe xrain

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First two lines, first post, right off the bat. You're immediately saying (indirectly) "you guys are stupid, you know nothing, you shouldn't have an opinion... except xrain." Or at least that's how I interpret it, and I feel that's not an unreasonable opinion. Exaggerated a tad perhaps, but there's no doubt a certain sarcastic "I'm better than you" tone to the way you communicate. I'm pointing this out because my immediate reaction to that behaviour is to say to myself "yea, right" and move on without taking what you're saying seriously. It also very clearly suggests that you're entirely un-open to other views, which could be understandably agitating.

From reading your posts I get the feeling that you think of us who have a differing opinion in this particular case as closed minded. Again that's what I interpreted, by no means a fact as I don't know what you think. Ironic maybe. You aren't involved on here much any longer so I wouldn't expect you to know but I've actually defended the LGBT community on several discussions which also brought me to discuss things further with some people outside of the forums. I'm by no means a part of the LGBT community myself but I do support them. I feel everyone should have freedom to have their own personal preference in these matters and that it's none of mine or anyone else's business. However, I simply see extending gender to so many more options opposed to male or female as unnecessary.


--- Quote from: ursus on February 15, 2014, 06:58:19 PM ---it's not that you need to know every detail of their issues, it's that you need to understand the nature of their experiences and in turn have enough basic common decency to, say, refer to someone as "they" instead of "she" without having to be directly asked multiple times because you saw on facebook that they specifically set their gender to non-binary and that they/them pronouns are what they're comfortable with

--- End quote ---
I have certainly no issue with doing such a thing. I feel I'm a fairly reasonable person and believe me I do try to treat everyone with decency. That's not the issue, however. I just don't see it's necessary to be redefining gender. I'm absolutely aware it's possible and happening. If you read through my first post I quoted definition for gender. It is simply an opinion though. Maybe it's simply because I'm used to the way things were so I have no desire for it to change. Call me stubborn but knowing that doesn't change my opinion. I still see that giving all these options is unnecessary because I'm sorry even with the information you've included I don't believe giving them these options will solve their problems if they're so troubled that they can't decide if they want to be referred to as male or female. It's not about not accepting their differences though. It's just as I said, I see it as an unnecessary push.



--- Quote from: ursus on February 15, 2014, 06:58:19 PM ---if you actually had any friends or talked to any people on good terms who were transgender, you would realize that the in-your-face angry yelling type of activism is mostly just a facade that gets put on simply because they're so desperate and exasperated from trying so hard to be taken seriously and still get ignored; once you get past that then they're pretty much average people who have normal interests and have no real problem with cis people on an individual scale

--- End quote ---
I disagree. If I have an issue with someone who's got the in-your-face personality that I don't like, I solely blame them for it. People react to situations differently and can consciously make the decision to better their behaviour if they think it should be bettered. If there's a cause for their attitude I can acknowledge it but there's a point that I'm not going to accept it or be around it which is a situation I've personally been having to handle a lot recently. I don't associate everyone or anyone in the LGBT community to be of that irritating pushy attitude unless they give me reason to. At the same time, I don't want to give reason for people to act this way.


--- Quote from: ursus on February 15, 2014, 06:58:19 PM ---also, why would you need a separate page for gender on a job application? you could literally just have a box to write your gender in, and if a potential employer doesn't know what it is one could explain it to them in less than five minutes easily. i feel like at this point you're blowing the entire issue out of proportion and almost making problems up to excuse not changing such a small part of your behavior

--- End quote ---
I'm sure I don't need to explain how exaggeration can be used when making a point.

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