I like it.
Now, will the temp servers be a testbed for this, or will the promotions carry over when we come back?
- No active VIP approval list
what's this mean :asian:I think it means VIP's can't vote in VIP apps nao
I think it means VIP's can't vote in VIP apps nao
what's this mean :asian:
what's this mean :asian:
some people got to be VIP and abuse it.
There's been quite a few previously demoted VIPs.
Why do people keep saying this? WHO DID
There's been quite a few previously demoted VIPs.Frank.
Most notably Roflcopter.
http://forum.randomgs.com/index.php/topic,3586.30.html (http://forum.randomgs.com/index.php/topic,3586.30.html)
also - got demoted twice, once for kicking someone for not giving back a weapon in zs and the other one for ghosthing.
Sounds great. A lot more fair towards the VIP's and I'll be hoping for this to be completed soon so that we may reapply :D (VIP's that had their status revoked)
did you even apply?
We all agree it's a good system, where it's more by nomination and by the "general bias" as opposed to having to meet a minimum of "yes's" to be approved.
BUT
How will the "general bias" be decided? Since each opinion is valued differently, you think we'd have to create some sort of rubric to weight each vote, and use that to count.
Basically, what I'm trying to get at, is we have one person be the one who reads all the responses, and weighs the general bias without having their own opinions cloud their decision.
In an ideal world, that person should be coolz, but he's obviously busy with stuff more critical than this.
So heres my question, who do YOU think this unbiased decision maker should be?
In all honesty, I think Deacon would be good for that.
In all honesty, I think Deacon would be good for that.
I think we should consider someone that we know shows as little bias as possible, like Minic or Xrain.
I think we should consider someone that we know shows as little bias as possible, like Minic or Xrain.
I think we should consider someone that we know shows as little bias as possible, like Minic or Xrain.But that's the same problem with coolz choosing.
In all honesty, I think Deacon would be good for that.
>doesn't trust me
:<
But that's the same problem with coolz choosing.
Question for Deacon then.
Let's travel to an alternate universe, where Pheonix was nominated and got a lot of good feedback from everyone, except for you.
What would you do?
I'm not saying you wouldn't make the right choice or anything, but I think you'd struggle with the decision because you /KNOW/ it's a bad idea. It should be someone who could make the choice without a second thought.
To be honest, I figure Don would be perfect since he has no heart.
It might not be my place to say this but I think Deacon would be the perfect candidate, he's active, trustworthy, and judging by his last statement and what I know of his character will make the decision the general consensus truly agrees with, not just his own bias.
In this alternate universe, assuming Phoenix wasn't a racist, yes.And there's your bias.
No one person should be weighing everyone's votes. And no offense Deacon, but especially not you. Simply because you don't play all the servers ie. TTT, meaning you really wouldn't know who's votes to weigh more in...
Simply because you don't play all the servers ie. TTT, meaning you really wouldn't know who's votes to weigh more in...
because I totally don't play. Like yesterday that wasn't me...
I like the whole Unbiased person weighing each vote approach, but why cant we have it so there are 3 people doing it, in a judging panel sort of way?
like if 2/3 judges say yes or however we would be measuring them - This way would be much harder to criticise as if any one person is disapproved of by 2 or more respected members, that person surely shouldn't be a VIP.
Oh shit.Or we could put it to 5.
That's actually a good idea.
It'd be far too difficult to organize something where ALL the admins come to a general consensus,
but if we limit it to the three most active, I think it'd definitely work.
Don and Snivy 2012.
I really can't think of anyone else I'd trust to do it. ._____.
I don't see why activity would be a deciding factor. The person who makes the final call should only work off of the votes of the community, and how actually valuable their input it.It does. For example; I only play TTT as far as these temp servers go. But, I know many players form there. Let's say there's a really good player there that I want VIP, but he only plays TTT. You or Hotgreen (due to <insertreasonhere>) wouldn't actually know how he acts in-game, but maybe he's made a mistake and done something semi-stupid on the forums, therefore you both don't want him promoted. The opinion of the admin who actually PLAYS with that player would in most cases need to be weighed in more.
Someone who writes three paragraphs on why someone should be VIP would obviously be counted more than someone who just writes one sentence as to why they shouldn't. Someone whose rather, inactive, would be much less biased when it comes to making the final decision.
I said don and snivy because neither of you have souls.Yes, lets put our sole trust into Don or Snivy to make final decisions on who to promote, after promoting both Little Fox and Pheonix in retaliation to Jman's semi-derp. You can see my concerns here.
It does. For example; I only play TTT as far as these temp servers go. But, I know many players form there. Let's say there's a really good player there that I want VIP, but he only plays TTT. You or Hotgreen (due to <insertreasonhere>) wouldn't actually know how he acts in-game, but maybe he's made a mistake and done something semi-stupid on the forums, therefore you both don't want him promoted. The opinion of the admin who actually PLAYS with that player would in most cases need to be weighed in more.
EDIT:>Not to point fingers here
Not to point fingers here but...Yes, lets put our sole trust into Don or Snivy to make final decisions on who to promote, after promoting both Little Fox and Pheonix in retaliation to Jman's semi-derp. You can see my concerns here.
Everyone is voting though.No I'm not talking about personal bias/opinion there ._.. I'm talking about how everyone was saying that one person would decide in general to promote or not, based on the arguments yet weighing in certain admins' opinions more heavily.
The admins and VIP's would still give their input in the applications, and explain why they feel the applicant should or shouldn't be approved.
The supposed three people making the final decision are supposed to look at all the responses, and ONLY agree on what the general consensus of the people who gave their opinion on it was. Not their own personal bias or opinion.
No I'm not talking about personal bias/opinion there ._.. I'm talking about how everyone was saying that one person would decide in general to promote or not, based on the arguments yet weighing in certain admins' opinions more heavily.
It does. For example; I only play TTT as far as these temp servers go. But, I know many players form there. Let's say there's a really good player there that I want VIP, but he only plays TTT. You or Hotgreen (due to <insertreasonhere>) wouldn't actually know how he acts in-game, but maybe he's made a mistake and done something semi-stupid on the forums, therefore you both don't want him promoted. The opinion of the admin who actually PLAYS with that player would in most cases need to be weighed in more.
You explicitly said "don't want him promoted because he's made a mistake and done something semi-stupid on the forums" which is taking personal bias into account....No... I mean something like... idk, posting adult content being unaware of the rules or something... or causing issues on the forums resulting in a ban or something, then later becoming better particularly on the servers.
It should be, despite our personal feelings towards the person, based on what everyone else has to say. Not what we say.
...No... I mean something like... idk, posting adult content being unaware of the rules or something... or causing issues on the forums resulting in a ban or something, then later becoming better particularly on the servers.So rougly said you're saying,
...No... I mean something like... idk, posting adult content being unaware of the rules or something... or causing issues on the forums resulting in a ban or something, then later becoming better particularly on the servers.
So rougly said you're saying,I don't think there would much admins with full vote ability then. What if this would apply to VIPs too?
Comparing to the old system,
admins active ingame would be the same as in the old system
and inactive admins would be like VIP voters?
I'd actually be okay with this.
I like the panel idea but i think it should be 5 people in it 3 from the admin staff 1 VIP and 1 REG that would give it great diversity
Yesss, yesss.. You are getting a bit shaky with the reg, so this person would have to be very trusted - but I like the overall idea.
Yes, that person would have to be trusted lol I threw the Reg in there because lets be honest only REGS truly know who people act in-game its no secret people act differently when a Admin/VIP are in game.
I like the panel idea but i think it should be 5 people in it 3 from the admin staff 1 VIP and 1 REG that would give it great diversityThats a horrible idea.
Thats a horrible idea.Well that was harsh.
deciding who should get what rank feels more like it should be decided as a community, not just by the highest ranks. As others have said, any of them being biased could bring lacking to their better judgement, and though a lot of people in the community do not have the most thought opinions more often then not, you get more personal thoughts on the matter then just a certain group of people who might not even know the person. These are just my personal thoughts though.
Not sure if you read the entire thread.Oh alright I see, I was confused about this earlier, and the thread had a lot of different stuff going, etc. I think that this sounds like a fine idea, but I can see how the final call decision might be kind of iffy, especially when wanting to put those in a rank they deserve personally, not just because the majority vote says they are good enough.
VIP's and Admins will vote just as normal. There'd be just no set minimal. The prospect of having some admins make the final verdict would be based ONLY on the responses of the VIP's and Admins that voted. Not their own personal opinion.
What doesn't seem to be getting across is that the three deciding-people would only go "Okay, so it looks like most of the people are for his promotion, and not against", and whatever the majority feels the overall responses are leaning towards, that's what the final verdict would be. Not "Oh, well we're only going to take these votes into account, but we're the ones whose opinions really matter".
It has nothing to do with the applicant or the application. It's only about the communities response towards it, and how it's interpreted. Having a Reg involved would just over-complicate things and just wouldn't be smart at all.
Oh alright I see, I was confused about this earlier, and the thread had a lot of different stuff going, etc. I think that this sounds like a fine idea, but I can see how the final call decision might be kind of iffy, especially when wanting to put those in a rank they deserve personally, not just because the majority vote says they are good enough.
But again, that's taking personal bias as your judgement. We could be against the promotion all we want, but if every single vote in the application (except our own) was for the promotion, we'd have to promote him....You don't really get what I'm saying at all. ._.
Unfortunately, Hotgreen is too inactive (although not by choice, from what I recall) for the system.
if you guys are searching someone to just count votes without having personal biases on the applicant... wouldn't it be better to have someone inactive so he wont really know the applicant?
A 3 person pannel would work just fine, it seems as though we're overcomplicating things.Pretty much this.
So new question,
Who would these three people be?
I'd like to nominate Axule as the VIP representative.
Also, I have a heart too ;_;
I'd like to nominate Axule as the VIP representative.No Snivy, you don't.
Also, I have a heart too ;_;
I'd like to nominate Axule as the VIP representative.
Also, I have a heart too ;_;
Actually Axule is active, normally saw him plays in CS:S instead of Garry's Mod.
When if you/I try to call him over to solve some problems, he will be there in-time.
I feel like Snivy and Don are a lot alike (in their hate for all things living) and therefor may share the same bias regardless of how much they try to control it.He's merely a creation.
This won't even matter until the servers come back. Lets forget it until then
The plan was to try out the new process with the temp servers, and use the downtime as a testbed to see if the new system could be a permanent solution.
So new question,Judging by what i can understand.
Who would these three people be?
Judging by what i can understand.
Can i Nominate Tiger Guy?
He is active, and is on TTT like 24/7 No Joke.
Activity doesn't matter in this case.Ok I think I know what your talking about...
And he's shown (very recently) he holds his personal bias above his responsibilities even as a VIP.
Mr Franklin.
Ok so there's a couple nominations for the VIP spot, we need to come to a consensus so we can actually get his up and running. I quite frankly think most all VIP's are capable but Axule might be the best choice because of his recent partial inactivity which eliminates bias, not to mention I know him and he never lets his feelings cloud his judgment.
I completely agree with Shockah on Axule. Axule is a very nice person in all situations, and I've never seen him hold any personal bias or hate towards someone.I agree completely. I voted for Axule because he is nice, but he also doesn't doesn't make choices on his personal preference. He is not biased and makes his judgements by what he see, and not by his own personal knowings of that individual. He is easy to talk to, and I think he is an excellent choice.
aBasically, I hate the system you're so wet with. It's just way too much work for something that can be achieved in less time to the exact same effects.
Basically, I hate the system you're so wet with. It's just way too much work for something that can be achieved in less time to the exact same effects.Moving that was pointless. I wanted a new thread solely for the discussion of my suggestion/other suggestions not regarding the current system you're suggesting.
Your system is just the system currently being discussed along with an additional step that includes coolz deciding on it.
Moving that was pointless. I wanted a new thread solely for the discussion of my suggestion/other suggestions not regarding the current system you're suggesting.Please read the entire thread.
And no, it's not an additional step. It's a DIFFERENT step. It's basically the same thing as what you're suggesting, but with having coolz decide the final decision rather than overly biased players. You're really not going to get people who are completely unbiased to finalize the decision. coolz however doesn't really know the players which would probably be applying, and he would be a lot more able to just finalize the decision based off of what everyone else thinks.
In other words, it definitely wouldn't have the same effects. It may take a little more time but the decision would be WAY more reliable. And the thing is, coolz wouldn't even have to be any more active to deal with the applications, as A) applications are rarely posted. B) Applications who are posted, rarely actually get close to being approved, so they would rarely even move onto the second step, as they should.
Please read the entire thread.Yes I know, but it's flooded with discussion about your idea. Not a big deal or anything I just wish admins wouldn't move stuff like that before even considering stuff... or talking to the other admin.
We already covered and explained why that wouldn't be possible, and why having three people with different views on things would be a good alternative.
And I moved it because this thread was made to discuss a new VIP application process. Not necessarily ours.
Yes I know, but it's flooded with discussion about your idea. Not a big deal or anything I just wish admins wouldn't move stuff like that before even considering stuff... or talking to the other admin.
Anyways, I did read a lot of the thread but there's too much to read lol. I know why you want the three people with different views, but I disagree with it. I saw nothing significant stating why me idea wouldn't possible work.
You're idea would work, just poorly. I feel it's just like the plan we've been talking about but with that final step, I don't think coolz is active enough to do even that, especially since the moment VIP apps are able to be posted again I know of 4 people who plan on doing so within the first few days, the amount of traffic after 3 ish months of not being able to post is going to be pretty high. Not only that but the amount of time taken would come close to tripling to get a vip approved, I think the whole purpose of changing the system was to make obtaining VIP a little more fair and feasible I feel your idea just makes it more difficult and more time costly.I honestly think the old system was perfectly fine. A few small modifications could have helped and that's it. But any ways... coolz wouldn't be looking through every application though. Only ones with a high percentage of votes towards the applicant.
I honestly think the old system was perfectly fine. A few small modifications could have helped and that's it---
I honestly think the old system was perfectly fine.Pretty much.
Pretty much.So if everyone's agreeing that the old system worked well... why are we changing it?
So if everyone's agreeing that the old system worked well... why are we changing it?
I'm not entirely satisfied with the current structure of the system.Well, I mean the old system before the temp servers. We could just revert back to that one, it had no problems really. We could just do that once the normal servers are back up, and keep applications down while the temp servers are up.
I read every post in the thread... however I'm still thinking of what to go along with.
I'm also perfectly fine with checking the VIP apps say if Sabb's, or a derivative of his idea, was the applied system.
I have always kept up with 99% of the threads and posts during my activity and the matter of deciding a VIP through his process seems like a relatively seemless addition.
However, I'm still not sure what to say yet and I'll be sure to announce another dicussion, announcement, or both when I do find out what process I want to go with.
Please do keep discussing methods if you have ideas as they do help the thought process for alternative or a combination of ideas.
Well, I mean the old system before the temp servers. We could just revert back to that one, it had no problems really. We could just do that once the normal servers are back up, and keep applications down while the temp servers are up.
I'm talking about that system specifically :oOh lol, well I liked that system. The only BAD thing about it is the fact that 90% of the admins on the active approvers list were innactive.
instead of having to reach x amount of votes, maybe you could have to reach x amount of plus ones, and the -1 rest the +1.The way you worded that really doesn't make sense lol.
ya that was what i was trying to say.Lots of VIPs have overly biased opinions though, which shouldn't really account in their voting to -1 often. So, wouldn't be a good idea.
But i mean, most of the people who didn't got it was because the amount of votes they needed to get was to high, not because they had -1's.
this way the people with enought +1 with no one with a reason of giving a -1 could get it.
I think that we could lower the vote count needed and remove the list of active VIP approvers meaning every admin would be considered as VIP approver, also I think that there shouldn't be a VIP vote limit...
...or we could add the VIPs to the active VIP approvers list meaning that their votes would count as much as other admins, but those VIPs shouldn't be only added because they're active on the servers, and perhaps they should be selected by the admins.
This is what I think should be done most, it's not too much of an insane change we're keeping the old system and bending it just a bit. I think if we lower the vote count needed by 1 erase the "active approvers list" and drop the VIP vote limit then that will make the application system just a bit more fair.
That's basically what I was proposing, however votes are detailed comments for or against the applicant with proof.
Then I'll check apps and weigh the considerations of both sides leading to an approval or disapproval.
Well then there we have it, if you are capable of reviewing vip apps (which you've stated you are) then that seems like the most practical option to myself. My only concern would be a person gets 2 votes and because both of those votes are good they get approved which is why I believe there should still be a certain amount of votes required just lowered by 2 or so.
I see what you mean but at that point the 2 positive comments would have to be cumulatively convincing to prove the applicant's character.
And in the corner case where the promotion turns out to be a mistake the situation can easily be rectified with a demotion.
1. The handling of Stone Cold's ban
What was wrong about how this was handled? Stone Cold did not listen to the banning admin, and got himself a permanent ban for doing so.
2. Tech
Yep
3. Random promotions [from various admins]
Is no longer a concern, that was during the temporary period in which they were technically allowed to do so.
4. Questionable Forum Censorship [not the server move misunderstanding]
What censorship?
Point is i'd like that to be part of the criteria for applications, so that talking out problems becomes more common rather than letting it escalate as in the case of stone.
The only one that didn't talk anything out with stone is stone. He doesn't listen to anything we say, and still thinks we banned him because he is too good and because he cusses.I'm talking about how it all started, as in it should have been resolved right then and there....but anyways my point is i want it to be part of the criteria.
I'm talking about how it all started, as in it should have been resolved right then and there....
So
You're telling me it was a bad thing I gave him six pages to get his act together before locking the first thread?
Because it only escalated becuase he kept making appeal after appeal when it was denied.
2. Tech
3. Random promotions [from various admins]
4. Questionable Forum Censorship [not the server move misunderstanding].
2. Yeah
3. If you're talking about VIP promotions, this has been discussed and has been dealt with and won't happen again until the new system is in place.
If you're talking about Reg promotions, you might want to read the information topic in that section.
4. u wot m8
When did this happen? ._.
Yes, admins and VIPs screw up, just like pretty much every human being. We aren't robots, we make mistakes, but most of which are either corrected or simply not mentioned.
If you think admins/VIPs abuse your right as American (xdxd) on a daily basis, how about contacting someone instead of just making generalized statements about it?
Wait, I still don't really get the whole thread, if you successfully become a VIP in Temp server, does this count in coolz server when it's up?Yes.
Yes.
If you think admins/VIPs abuse your right as American (xdxd)
@snivy:
I just want to make sure all future admins / vips are good with talking to people of all backgrounds and all types of characters, so situations go more smoothly...
This isn't a personal attack or anything on anyone in specific....except for maybe tech....lol.
Well, now this is de-railed, I just want it to be part of the criteria.
Edit:
I see you guys want me to explain my use of stone cold as an example...
My take on it is that Stone is a character. He's an older guy, he goes to ttt for some fun. I know the guy very well. I don't think he should be banned at all, and I really do think that something rubbed him wrong, and it just spiraled. He's been playing since spring 2011, just about every single day. And every single day until recently he's had no problems at all. Give the man some credit, take my word for it. So I used him as an example in what I think could have been easily resolved before it even started. No hard feelings guys, but come on, this really could have been handled better and there's no question about that.
Wait, I still don't really get the whole thread, if you successfully become a VIP in Temp server, does this count in coolz server when it's up?
Yes.
@snivy:I wasn't aware any of us really had any problems with that...
I just want to make sure all future admins / vips are good with talking to people of all backgrounds and all types of characters, so situations go more smoothly...
This isn't a personal attack or anything on anyone in specific....except for maybe tech....lol.
Well, now this is de-railed, I just want it to be part of the criteria.
Edit:
I see you guys want me to explain my use of stone cold as an example...
My take on it is that Stone is a character. He's an older guy, he goes to ttt for some fun. I know the guy very well. I don't think he should be banned at all, and I really do think that something rubbed him wrong, and it just spiraled. He's been playing since spring 2011, just about every single day. And every single day until recently he's had no problems at all. Give the man some credit, take my word for it. So I used him as an example in what I think could have been easily resolved before it even started. No hard feelings guys, but come on, this really could have been handled better and there's no question about that.