TTT: Traitor Testers..... why?

[Travelsonic]

I am branching this discussion off from the Official "This map sucks, Remove now kthx" Thread, since it doesn't necessarily include one map, but a thing I take issue with on a number of maps.

Traitor testers.

You know, usually some chamber where anybody whom is T will be killed if they enter it, or something along those lines.

My issue is how they seem to have gone from a funny idea - or even useful when the Ds are AFK, or dead - to something that is taking away from the gameplay completely.  Every map with one, and nearly every round on said map that I've been on - T, I, or D, it's always devolved into "GET IN OR DIE!" - in which those whom are not subjecting themselves to it are either T, or ASSUMED to be T, and killed.  The fostering of this mentality, and the reliance on them, in my opinion, is killing the game for me, at least on said maps. 

I mean, on a map with one of these testers, it quickly becomes a mob mentality, where everybody goes for the T tester [and over most of the rounds on [whichever map has a T-tester]] and either tests everyone, or kills those who don't / refuse to get tested, instead of actually, I dunno, Is and Ds looking for Ts using their wits, weapons, and tools.   What about the possibility of [R?]DMing, ghosting being fostered by this mentality, or fostering the idea that relying on these things > working to find Ts.

Perhaps there should be a limit on how many times a T tester can be used - per round, per-minute-of-a-round, etc - and make it so things can happen either with the evidence the dead body would otherwise produce, or the tester chamber itself, to render it useless eventually.  I mean, why shouldn't an incendiary grenade be able to damage it / multiple grenades destroy it for example?  ANYTHING to return balance to the maps with these things on them if outright removing them seems over the top [and I'd agree that there are legitimate cases where they are useful].

[Prox]

I have never experienced any problems with traitors testers. On some maps the traitor tester can be used
only a few times per round. Besides those traitor testers can be easily abused by traitors since
people get distracted when testing. Also, it's not like you have to be near the traitor tester the whole time,
people won't notice if you're not going to be anywhere near them.
Btw it's an rdm if people kill you when you refuse to go into a T tester.(as far as I know)

[blαh2355]

But Traitors can just plant a C4 or throw an incendiary in the T testing room. Traitor testing is usually for confirming people are innocent even though it's obvious that traitors won't go in there. I like the idea of the T tester in alt_borders. It doesn't give away the T that instantly and only gives 3 tests. We should leave T testers the way they are. Besides, I think the T testers are embedded into the coding of the map, not the server.

[Travelsonic]

Also, it's not like you have to be near the traitor tester the whole time,
people won't notice if you're not going to be anywhere near them.

See the mob / witch hunt mentality I mentioned initially, which is my chief complaint about them [which I should have made clearer if I didn't] - using the T chambers to create a witch hunt mentality where people not going into them are used as criteria to kill instead of the, you know, actual reasons - being shot at, evidence from Detective work, or other players, etc....

Traitor testing is usually for confirming people are innocent even though it's obvious that traitors won't go in there.

Am I correct in guessing the intent is for matters regarding conflicts like being accused falsely of being a T, etc? 

Because if that is so, the intent is more than noble, but from what I see the use is not confined to that use - it seems all too often I see people from the getgo starting a wave of "everybody get tested" - and with it creating the social atmosphere hostile to not getting tested with instilling the idea that those whom don't get tested MUST be T.

Often it seems that the people perpetuating that mentality are the same people who assume one is a T / suspicious based purely on inconsequential things like being hurt [hello falling, getting hit with doors, etc?] - not whether or not one has been tailing others suspiciously, shooting at others, etc.

[EDIT: And I am aware that these things are map additions.  Ones that have limited use, don't reveal it off the bat, etc are good - preferably if they can be damaged, or destoryed with a lot of damage, the ones I take issue with are things like doors that only Ts can open, or traps that drop Ts into lava [hello, Minecraft], etc - again, because I feel these things create a mentality, pattern of behavior that take away from the game.]

[Ἆxule]

Btw it's an rdm if people kill you when you refuse to go into a T tester.(as far as I know)

I believe it isn't rdm when you get killed for not following the Detective's orders to get in there.
But even if they call you in, you don't always have to. You can troll your way out of it.
The only time trolling doesn't work is when they're very big risk takers, or if they have the karma bug, meaning karma means nothing to them.

[Sabb]

Add a cap onto the testers?
Only works for 4 tests or something.

[Prox]

I believe it isn't rdm when you get killed for not following the Detective's orders to get in there.

I believe detectives on a video game can break rules too.

[Deacon]

About the mob mentality part of the game...

It is sort of meant to be that way.
You are a group of terrorists with known traitors among you.
You will team up with your partners to take down these traitors.
You can only trust those who have been through, lets say, a lie detector test.

Rather than relying on your friends to die before you can do anything.

[Travelsonic]

I believe it isn't rdm when you get killed for not following the Detective's orders to get in there.

That doesn't make sense - if you weren't being shot at, to shoot somebody only because they didn't follow an order - which I dunno if one is obligated to follow in the first place - is kosher.

About the mob mentality part of the game...

It is sort of meant to be that way.

But I'm arguing that the mis-use of traitor testers creates the wrong kind - as here you have a device that **can** definitively - depending of course on how it is implemented on a map - either reveal, or dispose of Terrorists with little more than convincing somebody to go into the chamber - which can evolve into cohesion with the threat of [in-game] death - either directly from not entering, or indirectly from people acting upon hyped up suspicion ascertained purely from not going in, and not from things like shooting at others, or stalking players, etc.

You are a group of terrorists with known traitors among you.

Well, to get pedantic, all that is known is that traitors are among you.  The thing is you, the players and detectives, must find out who it is...

You can only trust those who have been through, lets say, a lie detector test.

IMO not a good analogy - lie detectors operate more as a coercion-to-tell-the-truth than an actual ability to tell a lie from a truth - backed up in real out-of-game life by the ease of manipulating the results, the lack of admissibility in courts, etc... whereas in the game realm these things are anywhere from definitive in exposing and / or disposing of Ts.

Rather than relying on your friends to die before you can do anything.

 

.... perhaps that's part of how the game WORKS?  To use the work of the detectives with their tools - DNA scanners / the results of scanning the DNA of dead innocents, any list of names they could get of of them, and the help of those fellow innocents who were shot at, and survived [and/or killed a traitor], or witnessed such things going on?  Isn't part of the game using all of those things mentioned immediately above to DEDUCE who is T, if you aren't in a gunslinging fight against one who engaged you [and / or fucked up killing you stealthily]?

[Sabb]

That doesn't make sense - if you weren't being shot at, to shoot somebody only because they didn't follow an order - which I dunno if one is obligated to follow in the first place - is kosher.

I don't personally care when detectives kill for not going in the traitor tester, because if the person is refusing to be tested they obviously seem suspicious, so they are killing that person based on that suspicion. In other words, I don't really consider it RDM. Plus the person that doesn't want to go into the traitor tester could just be trying to get killed by the detective, so keeping that considered, not many people even kill for that anyways. (not from what I've seen at least)

[Travelsonic]

...because if the person is refusing to be tested they obviously seem suspicious

Depends....

...so they are killing that person based on that suspicion. In other words, I don't really consider it RDM.

How the hell would that NOT be RDMing if [key word IF] you have a guy getting killed just because they refuse to go into the traitor tester, without any evidence beyond that, at most you'd be able to deduce the person as suspicious if all you had to go on was that he/she refused to go into the tester.

 

Plus the person that doesn't want to go into the traitor tester could just be trying to get killed by the detective, so keeping that considered, not many people even kill for that anyways. (not from what I've seen at least)

Depends on the group of people you'd play with, which also depends on time of day/night you play I guess.

You'd have to keep all possibilities open I guess - I mean, lately we've seen it all, RDMers, aimbotters, ghosting, RDMing DETECTIVES, etc.

[Sabb]

Depends....

How the hell would that NOT be RDMing if [key word IF] you have a guy getting killed just because they refuse to go into the traitor tester, without any evidence beyond that, at most you'd be able to deduce the person as suspicious if all you had to go on was that he/she refused to go into the tester.

 
Depends on the group of people you'd play with, which also depends on time of day/night you play I guess.

You'd have to keep all possibilities open I guess - I mean, lately we've seen it all, RDMers, aimbotters, ghosting, RDMing DETECTIVES, etc.

RDM = "RANDOM death match".
Not "no proof deathmatch".
When someone refuses to be tested to be a traitor or not, imo, it's enough to kill the person if they want to give the risk.

[Travelsonic]

RDM = "RANDOM death match".

And what isn't random about shooting-to-kill somebody who at most has only been proven suspicious, with nothing else to go on than refusing to be tested? 

Keep in mind throughout the discussion, my focus has shifted to being far far far less about traitor testers existing in maps, if it was about that at ALL, but how the are used, if they are overused, used appropriately, etc, in case anybody thinks I'm arguing for any kind of traitor tester abolition here [which I'm not - or at least am not trying to].

[Sabb]

And what isn't random about shooting-to-kill somebody who at most has only been proven suspicious, with nothing else to go on than refusing to be tested? 

Keep in mind throughout the discussion, my focus has shifted to being far far far less about traitor testers existing in maps, if it was about that at ALL, but how the are used, if they are overused, used appropriately, etc, in case anybody thinks I'm arguing for any kind of traitor tester abolition here [which I'm not - or at least am not trying to].

I still don't consider it RDM.

[cogsandspigots]

I still don't consider it RDM.

RDM: Not allowed

No-proof: Allowed.

What the difference is is this:
RDM is killing without ANY reason whatsoever.
No-proof is killing someone you believe is traitor, even without solid proof.