I hate how people are hating on Israel right now...

[Nemisous]

Well there's always civilian casualties in conflicts.  Considering Hamas was elected by the Palestinians, the fact that Hamas hides among civilians, the refusal of and breaking of cease fires by Hamas, the size of Gaza, and the warnings Israel gives before striking, it's hard to blame Israel for the heavy civilian casualties we're seeing in the the region.  These are relevant factors to consider when making a comparison between this conflict and the one between Russia and Ukraine.

Okay let me break it down Nemi style.

1. Of course Hamas is going to hide among civilians, but does that make it okay for Israel to attack civilian areas? how far can Israel use the "Hamas made me do it' line.

2. Hamas only refused the cease-fires on the account that Hamas was never notified nor where they apart of the negotiations.

3. Also while it is good they at least give some sort of warning, but honestly a lot of people have a hard time evacuating due to the short time they are given and the flood of other people trying to get out, and even if they do escape where do they go? the UN shelters aren't safe and they cant leave the strip. Israel and Egypt wont let them.

judging by how the world reacted to Russia's annexing of Crimea, the world would be up in arms if Russia did something like this.

[Tezuni]

Guys I think you misunderstand my point.  I am not justifying Israel's killing of innocents (nor blaming them), I'm pointing out how the civilian casualties from Israel's rockets are unavoidable short of Israel ceasing fire all together.  And it's hard to expect them to cease firing when Hamas readily attacks them after doing so.  I haven't read up on the history of Israel from its' beginnings enough to judge either side morally, but the real key idea here from current events shows it's clear these losses will continue as a result of Hamas' strategy of hiding among the civilian population.  It's a terrible thing to see innocent kids and other non-combatants killed in the crossfire.

[saivon]

Guys I think you misunderstand my point.  I am not justifying Israel's killing of innocents (nor blaming them), I'm pointing out how the civilian casualties from Israel's rockets are unavoidable short of Israel ceasing fire all together.  And it's hard to expect them to cease firing when Hamas readily attacks them after doing so.  I haven't read up on the history of Israel from its' beginnings enough to judge either side morally, but the real key idea here from current events shows it's clear these losses will continue as a result of Hamas' strategy of hiding among the civilian population.  It's a terrible thing to see innocent kids and other non-combatants killed in the crossfire.

I disagree with you. So now you are saying that you are justifying hamas killings innocents in this crosfire very hypocritical.

[Prox]

Guys I think you misunderstand my point.  I am not justifying Israel's killing of innocents (nor blaming them), I'm pointing out how the civilian casualties from Israel's rockets are unavoidable short of Israel ceasing fire all together.  And it's hard to expect them to cease firing when Hamas readily attacks them after doing so.  I haven't read up on the history of Israel from its' beginnings enough to judge either side morally, but the real key idea here from current events shows it's clear these losses will continue as a result of Hamas' strategy of hiding among the civilian population.  It's a terrible thing to see innocent kids and other non-combatants killed in the crossfire.

So you're saying that it is Hamas to blame for the Palestinian casualties?

[Nemisous]

Guys I think you misunderstand my point.  I am not justifying Israel's killing of innocents (nor blaming them), I'm pointing out how the civilian casualties from Israel's rockets are unavoidable short of Israel ceasing fire all together.  And it's hard to expect them to cease firing when Hamas readily attacks them after doing so.  I haven't read up on the history of Israel from its' beginnings enough to judge either side morally, but the real key idea here from current events shows it's clear these losses will continue as a result of Hamas' strategy of hiding among the civilian population.  It's a terrible thing to see innocent kids and other non-combatants killed in the crossfire.

so your just buying into the whole "Hamas made me do it " gig eh? as a major power and leader in the world Israel has an obligation to look out for the lives of not only its own citizens but the citizens of others. because israel wouldn't bomb building in Israel firing rockets they would send special forces. its just amazing that Israel and the west do nothing but repeat the same scripted argument about how Israel lives in terror. if you want to know terror then go to Gaza. "that" is state terrorism.

[Prox]

Just so you guys know, there has been quite a large amount of politicians and rabbis in Israel who openly supported ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. They did not get any punishment nor criticism from Israel or the western world, in fact they were never even mentioned in the west. Israel does not want peace. Israel has one and only one intention which is to create one jewish state that is why every peace talks between Israel and Palestinian governments failed and will fail. Nothing is going to chance as long as the west won't be putting harsh sanctions on Israel and knowing how much influence do the jews have in the west it is unlikely to happen without any major change within the west itself. Until then, Israel will continue to act as if it is above the international law.

[Tiger Guy]

Just so you guys know, there has been quite a large amount of politicians and rabbis in Israel who openly supported ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. They did not get any punishment nor criticism from Israel or the western world, in fact they were never even mentioned in the west. Israel does not want peace. Israel has one and only one intention which is to create one jewish state that is why every peace talks between Israel and Palestinian governments failed and will fail. Nothing is going to chance as long as the west won't be putting harsh sanctions on Israel and knowing how much influence do the jews have in the west it is unlikely to happen without any major change within the west itself. Until then, Israel will continue to act as if it is above the international law.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/23/israeli-poll-majority-apartheid-policies

I read this earlier and was reminded of it when I read your post.

[Prox]

http://rt.com/usa/177404-senate-support-iron-dome-israel/
http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/214057-senate-passes-iron-dome-funding
Hehehe good goyim, sends us your shekels :^)

[Tezuni]

I disagree with you. So now you are saying that you are justifying hamas killings innocents in this crosfire very hypocritical.

No, I said I am not justifying it. 

So you're saying that it is Hamas to blame for the Palestinian casualties?

No, I am not blaming anyone (i said that, didn't i?).  I said palestinians will die as long as Israel fights Hamas, while the latter uses the strategy of hiding among civilians.  It's not blame, it's just the reality of the situation.

so your just buying into the whole "Hamas made me do it " gig eh? as a major power and leader in the world Israel has an obligation to look out for the lives of not only its own citizens but the citizens of others. because israel wouldn't bomb building in Israel firing rockets they would send special forces. its just amazing that Israel and the west do nothing but repeat the same scripted argument about how Israel lives in terror. if you want to know terror then go to Gaza. "that" is state terrorism.

No, i'm not buying into that at all.  I don't know how to stress this any more, but I'm not blaming anyone.  I'm stating the situation as it is, and the cause and effects we're seeing from their strategies.


And to all three of you guys, I'm not repeating any arguments in any favor for one side or the other.  And i'm not being 'hypocritical'.  Next time I think people should try and read thoroughly before going into attack-mode over a neutral analysis of the situation.  I have no investment in this personally, so saying i'm  regurgitating western rhetoric or blaming the Palestinians is just stupid.

[saivon]

No, I said I am not justifying it. 
No, I am not blaming anyone (i said that, didn't i?).  I said palestinians will die as long as Israel fights Hamas, while the latter uses the strategy of hiding among civilians.  It's not blame, it's just the reality of the situation.
No, i'm not buying into that at all.  I don't know how to stress this any more, but I'm not blaming anyone.  I'm stating the situation as it is, and the cause and effects we're seeing from their strategies.


And to all three of you guys, I'm not repeating any arguments in any favor for one side or the other.  And i'm not being 'hypocritical'.  Next time I think people should try and read thoroughly before going into attack-mode over a neutral analysis of the situation.  I have no investment in this personally, so saying i'm  regurgitating western rhetoric or blaming the Palestinians is just stupid.

I think we unleashed his mangeyko sharigan he's mad now guys

[Tezuni]

I think we unleashed his mangeyko sharigan he's mad now guys

No, I was clarifying.  Not mad at all tbh. 

[Jhon]

Just so you guys know, there has been quite a large amount of politicians and rabbis in Israel who openly supported ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. They did not get any punishment nor criticism from Israel or the western world, in fact they were never even mentioned in the west. Israel does not want peace. Israel has one and only one intention which is to create one jewish state that is why every peace talks between Israel and Palestinian governments failed and will fail. Nothing is going to chance as long as the west won't be putting harsh sanctions on Israel and knowing how much influence do the jews have in the west it is unlikely to happen without any major change within the west itself. Until then, Israel will continue to act as if it is above the international law.

And just so you know, there are also politicians in Israel who openly support "Shahids" (basically, terrorists) and speak against the existence of Israel. They didn't get any punishment either.

If they didn't want peace, I don't think they would've supplied the Gaza strip with resources (electricity, fuel, food, concrete, etc).

[Prox]

And just so you know, there are also politicians in Israel who openly support "Shahids" (basically, terrorists) and speak against the existence of Israel. They didn't get any punishment either.

If they didn't want peace, I don't think they would've supplied the Gaza strip with resources (electricity, fuel, food, concrete, etc).

Lol, is that why IDF is bombing everything in there even the UN schools? Is that why Israel continues to occupy more and more land every year?
   Your government is full of shit. Every time I hear Israeli officials or Nuttyahoo speak on pretty much anything it's always blatant lies that do not meet reality in any way and I always wonder how can people in Israel actually believe that shit they're saying? Do you believe what they're saying?

[Monorail Cat]

Prox, think for a second:  if Hamas lays down his weapons and says "we will no longer fight," what would happen?  Now, if Israel lays down its weapons and says "we will no longer fight," what do you think would happen?  Judging from past circumstances, I would assume that Israel would be wiped out if they stop fighting, but there would be a much better chance at peace if Hamas stopped.

[Jhon]

Lol, is that why IDF is bombing everything in there even the UN schools? Is that why Israel continues to occupy more and more land every year?
   Your government is full of shit. Every time I hear Israeli officials or Nuttyahoo speak on pretty much anything it's always blatant lies that do not meet reality in any way and I always wonder how can people in Israel actually believe that shit they're saying? Do you believe what they're saying?

"Everything", they are bombing every place where missiles are shot from / any place with important people from the Hamas and sadly there are a lot of those. If they really wanted to bomb everything, why would they bring in the soldiers? They would've just used heavier bombs instead of the small bombs they used to minimize collateral damage. Bringing in the soldiers is a bad thing for Israel.
Missiles were shot from a UN school, so they shot back. Are you saying they should've waited until someone would've been killed by those missiles, chatted a bit with the UN about the problem and maybe waited a bit more while they "solve" the problem?
By occupying more land do you mean the people who settle beyong the green line? If so then those settlers are removed from their homes by the army. As much as possible.

I'm not sure about what or who do you mean by "they", but just so you know that, as opposed to what people may think, the media in Israel is mostly neutral or pro-palestinian. No brainwashing pro-Israeli propaganda. They either show the truth or they show mainly the other side's casaulties (which Israel also ends up taking care of. While getting shot at by Hamas ofcourse).
People in Israel usually say things from actually being a soldier or having relatives in the army.

I think you should instead ask "Why does Hamas keep fighting, even though they know it's futile?"  It's quite easy to answer - More victims, more pictures they can show, more support for them and more hate at Israel and Jews.


I also find it interesting how so many people protest against Israel when much more horrible things are currently happening around the world. I don't remember seeing such a reaction to the civil war in Syria for example.