Author Topic: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.  (Read 269 times)

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Offline Ἆxule

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Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2012, 01:56:33 AM »
0
Well, I kinda meant 1v1 lol

I know :P
But even with what I said, it's not impossible.

but witht he ships and such, it was like maybe 10 or so small ships against the entire British Navy.
That's what I was trying to bring up.

it doesn't matter though, so it's k

Offline Cheesicle

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Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2012, 02:00:40 AM »
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I know :P
But even with what I said, it's not impossible.

but witht he ships and such, it was like maybe 10 or so small ships against the entire British Navy.
That's what I was trying to bring up.

it doesn't matter though, so it's k

Lol well obviously like 10 boats against 300 British warships is impossible...

Unless a typhoon wiped out 9/10 of them and the remaining ships had morons as captains who mistook the other British ships as the enemy.

Offline cogsandspigots

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Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2012, 02:04:36 AM »
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Anyways, I didn't know this was a joke, partially because I skimmed through everything.
OP said this was satire and wasn't to be taken seriously.



Look again, this thread is now warships. (wut?)

Offline Cheesicle

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Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2012, 02:09:39 AM »
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OP said this was satire and wasn't to be taken seriously.



Look again, this thread is now warships. (wut?)

Yep, it was a satirical essay written by Jonathan Swift in response to the pleads of the people of Ireland (I think?) after several people were starving to death, while the king refused to do anything about it.

For anyone too lazy to read it, here's a basic synopsis of what he said.

As a "solution" to the poverty problem, Swift proposed that the poor people of Ireland sell their children as food for the rich people. This would curb overpopulation and bring income to the poor.

Offline Xrain

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Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2012, 03:34:09 AM »
+5
...........no. 
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
but think of it if the US and the Europeans economies tank, then china's economy would tank, because all the nations rely on each other and the fall of one would cause the fall of many. and if china's economy bit the dust, millions of people would starve, because china has to import alot of goods to sustain its large population.

@blah, no israel has a very small army, well equiped but small. as they have less then 400,000 soldiers keep in mind israel has a population smaller than london's. and 75% of the IDF is conscripts.

Comparing military strength legitimately isn't something that could be done by comparing numbers or the amount of money put into hardware and training. Comparing the attrition rate during WWII to now also makes no sense. In WWII we had the draft, every able bodied person for the most part was called to serve, you would naturally have a higher attrition rate as a wider demographic of  people were being called upon.

Think about it, if you called every-single 18-30 year old in the united states right now, our attrition rate would be probably around 22% again or maybe even higher. Two different time periods cant be directly compared all that well in some cases.

Right now Russia is as far as I can tell in a period of confusion over what it really wants. Most of their heavy industrial complexes are still making the exact same hardware that they have been for the past 30 years. Don't get me wrong some of that stuff is pretty damn awesome. But they don't really have any of their engineering dynamos anymore that were responsible for some of their greatest advancements. There are certainly areas in the Russian industrial complex that are making great strides, however on the whole they are somewhat stagnant.

If we were to take every bit of conventional hardware and manpower that we have, and pit it against every bit of hardware and manpower that china has. It is extraordinarily likely that we would end up coming out on top. The reason being that while china has an army that has several times as many people we do. What the US military focuses on is what are called "combat multipliers" or getting more results per soldier. But this really doesn't mean anything.

In reality if china attacked us, it certainly wouldn't be pleasant, and many would die on both sides. But if someone legitimately attacked the US mainland with a full blown assault. I think you would quickly see all of our internal conflict and problems would most likely disappear almost overnight. With the current state of the other countries, the only way I think we would possibly lose to an invasion on US soil is if every single country in the world (at least 90%) attacked us in unison. There simply isn't much you can do when 6.7 billion people are attacking you.

On the same note, unless we have massive support from most of the world, I highly doubt we could successfully invade china. It would take events of astronomical odds to make it happen (read: a plague wipes out most of Asia aka: what happened the the Aztec and such)


As for our economic situation, most of our debt is held to our own country. We could easily get rid of it, just by saying it's not there, but that would collapse the system as we know it. As money is based on how much people believe in it, not on any tangible thing.



Now for overpopulation. It will stabilize, no matter what. What will vary is how big the rises and falls are in the global population as we reach the limit, and fall back down, then rise up again, and fall etc. Each time the rise and falls will get smaller and smaller. The real issue is just minimizing the amount of human suffering that will take place, and getting it to stabilize as painlessly as possible. On the flip side, as technology improves, so too will our capacity to make best use of what we have. Especially if we get fusion power. Anything is possible, all you need is a sufficient quantity of useful energy.


As for the satirical paper, I remember reading about it in high-school, It was a great idea, satire is an excellent way to reach people when other forms of communication fail. As generally the best idea is to throw an idea out there, and use some techniques to guide who you are persuading to come to the conclusion you desire. You can never force someone to truly believe you if you don't let them connect the dots themselves.
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Offline Nemisous

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Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2012, 05:13:47 AM »
0
for Cogs
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
for Xrain
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
that is all.
but getting back to topic, the population crisis will work itself out. most likely their will be huge viral outbreak. or as i said the world economy collapses and millions of ppl will starve. nature always seems to find a balance.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 05:28:40 AM by Nemisous »

Offline Xrain

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Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2012, 06:30:25 AM »
+3
for Cogs
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
12 billion? the debt last time I checked the national debt was 15.246 trillion dollars, China currently holds 8% of the US debt, or around 1.2 Trillion. So there is no way in hell that china even comes close to holding 79% of our debt. If you are going to use statistics to back up your arguments, check them once or twice.

Good ole missiles. Yes you are correct, you can certainly just bristle your country with countless missiles and it would be pretty damn hard for others to do anything about it, but your cost skyrockets, and land based systems have much more limited mobility. The main reason you build a navy, is so you can do things at other locations than your home, or where land based systems cannot reach. Such as if someone decides to shut down your trade route beyond the range of your anti-ship missiles you are pretty much SOL. And no I would not recommend using a long range missile at this point, as some might interpret a missile of that caliber as a nuclear attack.

What a ship does for you is extends the range your missiles can go. It's pretty much identical to a land based system, but it happens to travel on the water. And ocean going craft have numerous distinct advantages to mobile land based systems. (a lot less trees, peat bogs, and rivers to hold you up). So it's never a simple matter of " I HAVE MISSILES, MISSILES KILL THINGS GOOD, I GET MOAR MISSILES".

Besides, if Navies and other forces were obsolete why would china be building Air-craft carriers, and at the same time a massive buildup of smaller vessels.

for Xrain
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
that is all.
but getting back to topic, the population crisis will work itself out. most likely their will be huge viral outbreak. or as i said the world economy collapses and millions of ppl will starve. nature always seems to find a balance.

I am well aware of what attrition rate is, I was attempting to say, since you were pulling people from a larger demographic during WWII. So naturally you would get an increase in unacceptable recruits. You are correct on the other hand, I am sure the requirements for what is required has gone down, since naturally they want a fully appointed force without resorting to conscription. Another thing you may not have considered is we have had significant gains in training effectiveness since WWII, so some of the decrease in Attrition rate might be due to a better capability to reform rectruits.

I would use the term "Modern Standards" somewhat gingerly when in reference to Russia's equipment. They have certainly been updated, but Russia still very much likes the tried and tried and tried and tired and true method. Main reason for this, is they do not have the same scale of a technological research base to vastly upgrade all of their platforms.

As far as US equipment goes, some of our military equipment descends from the 40's - 50's, some of it is from the cold war, and there is also plenty of new developments (read: drones). Like the Russians we also hold to tried and true methods when we can, but we also are actively developing new technologies. I can promise you that a vast majority of the avionics and sensors, are not from the cold war. We might use many of the same airframes as we did in the cold war, but many of the components would not be recognizable compared to the 80's version.

Force Multiplier is indeed a buzzword, but we had a technological edge over the Russians for most of the latter half of the cold war, and while the USSR collapsed we didn't experience the same hardships they had. We might not have the same fervent motivation as we did when we had to "Beat the Commies" We definitely haven't stood still. So trying to tell me that we have done nothing technological wise, except for sit on our ass and twiddle our thumbs since the cold war. It would just be a fallacy.

Heck with the rocket launch I worked on last November, its mission was to launch a prototype military comm satellite to vastly improve battlefield communication. Reducing the need for the helical antenna on a mountain, and a 30 lbs comm package, to a small handheld radio.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 05:32:51 PM by Xrain »
" I don't take square roots, I make them. Then I set them out to cool after I baked them for 40 minutes."
"It's Canadia, not Chlamydia."
"Hold on I just have to ddos myself"
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Offline cogsandspigots

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Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2012, 08:41:49 AM »
+1
Very long; Still read
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Offline Nemisous

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Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2012, 10:16:39 AM »
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I am well aware of what attrition rate is, I was attempting to say, since you were pulling people from a larger demographic during WWII. So naturally you would get an increase in unacceptable recruits. You are correct on the other hand, I am sure the requirements for what is required has gone down, since naturally they want a fully appointed force without resorting to conscription. Another thing you may not have considered is we have had significant gains in training effectiveness since WWII, so some of the decrease in Attrition rate might be due to a better capability to reform rectruits.

I would use the term "Modern Standards" somewhat gingerly when in reference to Russia's equipment. They have certainly been updated, but Russia still very much likes the tried and tried and tried and tired and true method. Main reason for this, is they do not have the same scale of a technological research base to vastly upgrade all of their platforms.

As far as US equipment goes, some of our military equipment descends from the 40's - 50's, some of it is from the cold war, and there is also plenty of new developments (read: drones). Like the Russians we also hold to tried and true methods when we can, but we also are actively developing new technologies. I can promise you that a vast majority of the avionics and sensors, are not from the cold war. We might use many of the same airframes as we did in the cold war, but many of the components would not be recognizable compared to the 80's version.

Force Multiplier is indeed a buzzword, but we had a technological edge over the Russians for most of the latter half of the cold war, and while the USSR collapsed we didn't experience the same hardships they had. We might not have the same fervent motivation as we did when we had to "Beat the Commies" We definitely haven't stood still. So trying to tell me that we have done nothing technological wise, except for sit on our ass and twiddle our thumbs since the cold war. It would just be a fallacy.

Heck with the rocket launch I worked on last November, its mission was to launch a prototype military comm satellite to vastly improve battlefield communication. Reducing the need for the helical antenna on a mountain, and a 30 lbs comm package, to a small handheld radio.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
but anyways i think we have stayed on this topic far to long on this subject. lets just say if the US doesn't quit its military industrial complex then it will suffer the same fate as Russia.

Offline cogsandspigots

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Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2012, 10:30:31 AM »
+1
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
but anyways i think we have stayed on this topic far to long on this subject. lets just say if the US doesn't quit its military industrial complex then it will suffer the same fate as Russia.
Epic Facepalm

Offline Cake Faice

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Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2012, 12:08:45 PM »
+1
Nemious, just stop arguing with Xrain. Period.

Offline Seb

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Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2012, 12:40:57 PM »
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too long, still fails

Nem, you clearly know WHAT you're talking about, but at the same time you don't. Just stop posting. The population will stabilize, the US is definitely one of the strongest (if not THE) militaries in the world, and no other country has any large say in what goes on in our economy.
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Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2012, 04:15:29 PM »
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It's a good thing Xrain is here, because Wikipedia isn't up and I'd be lost otherwise.

But I guess the thread is pretty much over.

Good read.


Offline Deacon

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Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2012, 06:04:39 PM »
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can't say shit.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 06:59:28 PM by Deacon »

Offline Xrain

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Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2012, 06:18:14 PM »
+3
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
but anyways i think we have stayed on this topic far to long on this subject. lets just say if the US doesn't quit its military industrial complex then it will suffer the same fate as Russia.

Ah yes the good ole "In my day I had to walk through 10 miles of snow and fight off bears with my bare hands" My question would be, is just because you are fat or skinny, does that make you useless to a military complex? In some ways training today probably is easier, in some cases it might just be that they found out all that holding water in the hot sun does, is give you heat stroke.

To me what makes sense is that basic training isn't serving the same purpose it had in WWII. The purpose of basic today seems more to hammer your mind into the way of thinking that the military wants, and then they have other schools (special forces training etc.) to really hone people down to what they want. While in WWII they needed lots of general purpose soldiers and fast. So they had basic be the one stop solution for getting soldiers trained. I can't really substantiate these claims as I haven't experienced how things were in WWII and today. But it seems like a plausible conclusion.


In the case of Russia, more of my experience is in the Space end of their industrial  complex. The NK-33 engine that they had developed for their N-1 rocket is a fantastic engine. However despite Aerojet contracting the Russians for more of these engines, Russia doesn't have the capability to manufacture them anymore. Another example is the Phobos-Grunt spacecraft that just fell back to earth a few days ago. It was a very ambitious mission and would have had amazing results if successful. However it seems that budgetary problems and half-handed engineering practices doomed the spacecraft.

And as a result Russia accused the US of using microwave emitters in Alaska to sabotage the craft. Instead of admitting a failure of design/manufacturing on their part. I never intended to said that Russian engineers stopped working at the collapse of the soviet union. My point was that most of their industral complex collapsed when the USSR did, and they had to spend time slowly building themselves back up to where they are now. While in the US we have some economic downturns, but the continuity of our industrial complex stays mostly the same.


As for the US aircraft, I'm going to stop you right there. The predator isn't the only successful aircraft to have been developed. It is certaintly a HIGHLY successful aircraft to have been developed, but even in the drone world there is a slew of highly successful aircraft. Like the Global Hawk, people just tend to hear more about the Predator as that tends to be what the use to shoot missiles at insurgents. And thus is in the news more often.
The F-22 is in no way a failure. It certently didn't meet their original expectations, but for that matter, neither did the Space Shuttle. For the F-22 its more of a case that we just arn't currently involved in conflicts that require it. If we got into a war with another superpower I imagine there would suddenly be plenty of missions for it, as it needs to go intercept other fighter craft.

F-22 like the F-35 the mainstream news just LOVES to pick holes in the aircraft. They always are going on about how OMG THEY HAVE TO DO FURTHER DEVELOPMENT AFTER ITS BEEN PUT INTO SERVICE. OMG IT HAS SOME DEVELOPMENT PROBLEMS. So they then start to call it a money pit, or case-and-point of military wasteful spending.

The reality is, this is what happens when you develop ANY new system. You always have problems. There hasn't been an engineering project in the history of mankind that hasn't experienced some sort of serious set-back or issue. That's just how things happen in the real world. To make matters worse, people always run with the expectation that things should always work the first time every time, and it obviously is a failure on the designers part for not foreseeing said issue.

I'm an Aerospace Engineer, So I will admit I am probably a little bit biased, but it irritates me to no end when people start making wild assumptions like "NASA DOSNT DO ANYTHING, NASA TAKES 99.9% OF THE FEDERAL BUDGET" etc. etc.

And your right, we are most likely using 80% of the airframes and basic armaments are still in use today as what we used in the gulf war. The Russians still use the AK-47 as a primary armament, and that was from 1947. Most of what has changed to day is what we use to gather and communicate information. I would say almost 80% of the information gathering/communication equipment that the military uses has changed since only 15 years ago.

As far as US military ships go, the biggest development would be the Aegis Combat system. Most of this development was done post end of cold war. And now we have almost 90 cruisers fitted with this system. Considering the Aegis is set to replace several previous ship classes, I would say this is a pretty significant development. Also the Aegis system was specifically design to combat anti-ship missiles. We also have the Stiletto stealth ships that are being manufactured, which are in some ways a descendant of the prototype Sea Shadow.

There are many reasons that can cause the US to collapse, and I would say overzealous military spending isn't one of them. I would agree that we shouldn't still be spending like we are at war, but it's important to maintain the industry. All of these Specialist designers for stealth technology and missile systems dont come out of nowhere. We need to maintain the industry we have to ensure that we retain the capability.

An example would be the Apollo era. After the last Apollo mission NASA pretty much went cold turkey, and stopped interplanetary human spaceflight. So now since all of that heritage and capability was lost over the years, we are still struggling to get it back.


It's never as simple as oh hey, lets just stop spending on military research and only do it when we really need it. Since if we did, and we did end up needing it, we wouldn't have the time to make all the mistakes required to build that industry back up.
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"It's Canadia, not Chlamydia."
"Hold on I just have to ddos myself"
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