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.:`=-~rANdOm~`-=:. Game Servers (Read Only) => Discussion => Topic started by: cogsandspigots on January 17, 2012, 04:44:16 PM

Title: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: cogsandspigots on January 17, 2012, 04:44:16 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal)

This is satire, mind you.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: Nemisous on January 17, 2012, 04:54:26 PM
the population crisis will be most likely be averted, the only reason why there has been a boom in population growth is because living standards of living is much higher then they where 70 years ago. with the downfall of the US and the European powers, the standard of living with deteriorate, as such welfare will be non existent and people will be forced to get jobs just to pay for food and other products that are need to sustain life. this will also help in the over weight problem in America and across the globe. hmmm funny how things seem to work themselves out.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: cogsandspigots on January 17, 2012, 05:14:25 PM
the population crisis will be most likely be averted, the only reason why there has been a boom in population growth is because living standards of living is much higher then they where 70 years ago. with the downfall of the US and the European powers, the standard of living with deteriorate, as such welfare will be non existent and people will be forced to get jobs just to pay for food and other products that are need to sustain life. this will also help in the over weight problem in America and across the globe. hmmm funny how things seem to work themselves out.
Nothing personal, but I believe this is complete fallacy.
The population crisis will be averted not because of the fall of the US or Europe, but rather beacause having many children puts too much of a strain on a family.
Years ago, a child could go to school a few years, then enter the workforce quickly. Now, it takes 18-25 years for a child to economically support themself.
Also, the US will not fall within next 150 years. It simply has:
1. A power-house of an economy.
2. The world's most powerful military. (by a long shot)
3. Complete control of the world's oceans
4. No powerful opponents. (China is in no place to oppose the US)

And, the population crisis isn't even a crisis at all.
The United States has a population density way below that of the worlds average and can support far more people than it already has.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: Nemisous on January 17, 2012, 06:53:55 PM
the US will not fall within next 150 years. It simply has:
1. A power-house of an economy.
2. The world's most powerful military. (by a long shot)
3. Complete control of the world's oceans
4. No powerful opponents. (China is in no place to oppose the US)

And, the population crisis isn't even a crisis at all.
The United States has a population density way below that of the worlds average and can support far more people than it already has.

...........no. just because you spend the most on your military doesnt mean its the best in the world, china has the largest military in the world and some of the most cutting edge technology yes they spend less than an 8th of what we spend on are military, in fact the US's training standards are fare lower then they where during ww2. The army's attrition rate was 22% during WW2, now its just 6% largely to accommodate the women and overweight people, infact the US military has the lowest PFT scores in the world, the USMC is the only exception. also are military hardware is about the same as it was at the end of the cold war.
but i find if funny that you say we dont have any powerful opposition, yet China and Russia have larger and more powerful armies then the US. hell china would even have to attack the US they could ruin us monetarily because they own 70% of are debt.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: blαh2355 on January 17, 2012, 06:59:09 PM
You guys forgot Isreal, they have a really big military also yet they're small.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: Deathie on January 17, 2012, 07:00:58 PM
Don't forget the Klingons.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: Nemisous on January 17, 2012, 07:03:19 PM
the US will not fall within next 150 years. It simply has:
1. A power-house of an economy.
2. The world's most powerful military. (by a long shot)
3. Complete control of the world's oceans
4. No powerful opponents. (China is in no place to oppose the US)

And, the population crisis isn't even a crisis at all.
The United States has a population density way below that of the worlds average and can support far more people than it already has.

...........no. 
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
but think of it if the US and the Europeans economies tank, then china's economy would tank, because all the nations rely on each other and the fall of one would cause the fall of many. and if china's economy bit the dust, millions of people would starve, because china has to import alot of goods to sustain its large population.

@blah, no israel has a very small army, well equiped but small. as they have less then 400,000 soldiers keep in mind israel has a population smaller than london's. and 75% of the IDF is conscripts.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: Apie2 on January 18, 2012, 12:59:18 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal)

This is satire, mind you.
U cant get on wiki o_O
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: Ἆxule on January 18, 2012, 01:18:12 AM
Scientifically, over-population will take care of it's self, according to Darwin's theory of evolution.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: cogsandspigots on January 18, 2012, 01:27:55 AM
Just stop Nemisous.

You aren't making any sense.

China DOES NOT own the US, not even a sizable portion.
China's growth is so artificially inflated from rock-bottom interest rates, if it stops growing. It gets ruined.
Also, food for thought:
Name any country that has a good enough navy to beat the uS in a single naval battle.


Now, back on-topic:
U cant get on wiki o_O
Oops, forgot about that SOPA protest.
Try again in 24 hours.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: Ἆxule on January 18, 2012, 01:32:57 AM
Just stop Nemisous.

You aren't making any sense.

China DOES NOT own the US, not even a sizable portion.
China's growth is so artificially inflated from rock-bottom interest rates, if it stops growing. It gets ruined.
Also, food for thought:
Name any country that has a good enough navy to beat the uS in a single naval battle.

Well, there is no right answer. It could be anyone really.

For example, some time in history (I don't remember when), a group of boats took out the entire British Navy, which at the time was the strongest in the world.
Now, I'm going off memory, so I may be wrong on a lot of this, but what I know for sure it:

Small guys beat up the big guys.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: cogsandspigots on January 18, 2012, 01:38:38 AM
Since Axule has said we both could both be right or wrong, let's get back to topic.

I had meant this thread to be a joke, not to argue the US's fate.

Admins, if he posts another counter-argument, feel free to lock this thread.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: Cheesicle on January 18, 2012, 01:40:01 AM
Small guys beat up the big guys.

I KNOW A GOOD EXAMPLE

SCOUT BEATS A HEAVY CLOSE RANGE FOR SURE.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: Ἆxule on January 18, 2012, 01:50:08 AM
I KNOW A GOOD EXAMPLE

SCOUT BEATS A HEAVY CLOSE RANGE FOR SURE.

3 scouts kill 100 Heavy's.
Alright.


Anyways, I didn't know this was a joke, partially because I skimmed through everything.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: Cheesicle on January 18, 2012, 01:54:11 AM
3 scouts kill 100 Heavy's.
Alright.


Anyways, I didn't know this was a joke, partially because I skimmed through everything.

Well, I kinda meant 1v1 lol
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: Ἆxule on January 18, 2012, 01:56:33 AM
Well, I kinda meant 1v1 lol

I know :P
But even with what I said, it's not impossible.

but witht he ships and such, it was like maybe 10 or so small ships against the entire British Navy.
That's what I was trying to bring up.

it doesn't matter though, so it's k
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: Cheesicle on January 18, 2012, 02:00:40 AM
I know :P
But even with what I said, it's not impossible.

but witht he ships and such, it was like maybe 10 or so small ships against the entire British Navy.
That's what I was trying to bring up.

it doesn't matter though, so it's k

Lol well obviously like 10 boats against 300 British warships is impossible...

Unless a typhoon wiped out 9/10 of them and the remaining ships had morons as captains who mistook the other British ships as the enemy.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: cogsandspigots on January 18, 2012, 02:04:36 AM
Anyways, I didn't know this was a joke, partially because I skimmed through everything.
OP said this was satire and wasn't to be taken seriously.



Look again, this thread is now warships. (wut?)
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: Cheesicle on January 18, 2012, 02:09:39 AM
OP said this was satire and wasn't to be taken seriously.



Look again, this thread is now warships. (wut?)

Yep, it was a satirical essay written by Jonathan Swift in response to the pleads of the people of Ireland (I think?) after several people were starving to death, while the king refused to do anything about it.

For anyone too lazy to read it, here's a basic synopsis of what he said.

As a "solution" to the poverty problem, Swift proposed that the poor people of Ireland sell their children as food for the rich people. This would curb overpopulation and bring income to the poor.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: Xrain on January 18, 2012, 03:34:09 AM
...........no. 
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
but think of it if the US and the Europeans economies tank, then china's economy would tank, because all the nations rely on each other and the fall of one would cause the fall of many. and if china's economy bit the dust, millions of people would starve, because china has to import alot of goods to sustain its large population.

@blah, no israel has a very small army, well equiped but small. as they have less then 400,000 soldiers keep in mind israel has a population smaller than london's. and 75% of the IDF is conscripts.

Comparing military strength legitimately isn't something that could be done by comparing numbers or the amount of money put into hardware and training. Comparing the attrition rate during WWII to now also makes no sense. In WWII we had the draft, every able bodied person for the most part was called to serve, you would naturally have a higher attrition rate as a wider demographic of  people were being called upon.

Think about it, if you called every-single 18-30 year old in the united states right now, our attrition rate would be probably around 22% again or maybe even higher. Two different time periods cant be directly compared all that well in some cases.

Right now Russia is as far as I can tell in a period of confusion over what it really wants. Most of their heavy industrial complexes are still making the exact same hardware that they have been for the past 30 years. Don't get me wrong some of that stuff is pretty damn awesome. But they don't really have any of their engineering dynamos anymore that were responsible for some of their greatest advancements. There are certainly areas in the Russian industrial complex that are making great strides, however on the whole they are somewhat stagnant.

If we were to take every bit of conventional hardware and manpower that we have, and pit it against every bit of hardware and manpower that china has. It is extraordinarily likely that we would end up coming out on top. The reason being that while china has an army that has several times as many people we do. What the US military focuses on is what are called "combat multipliers" or getting more results per soldier. But this really doesn't mean anything.

In reality if china attacked us, it certainly wouldn't be pleasant, and many would die on both sides. But if someone legitimately attacked the US mainland with a full blown assault. I think you would quickly see all of our internal conflict and problems would most likely disappear almost overnight. With the current state of the other countries, the only way I think we would possibly lose to an invasion on US soil is if every single country in the world (at least 90%) attacked us in unison. There simply isn't much you can do when 6.7 billion people are attacking you.

On the same note, unless we have massive support from most of the world, I highly doubt we could successfully invade china. It would take events of astronomical odds to make it happen (read: a plague wipes out most of Asia aka: what happened the the Aztec and such)


As for our economic situation, most of our debt is held to our own country. We could easily get rid of it, just by saying it's not there, but that would collapse the system as we know it. As money is based on how much people believe in it, not on any tangible thing.



Now for overpopulation. It will stabilize, no matter what. What will vary is how big the rises and falls are in the global population as we reach the limit, and fall back down, then rise up again, and fall etc. Each time the rise and falls will get smaller and smaller. The real issue is just minimizing the amount of human suffering that will take place, and getting it to stabilize as painlessly as possible. On the flip side, as technology improves, so too will our capacity to make best use of what we have. Especially if we get fusion power. Anything is possible, all you need is a sufficient quantity of useful energy.


As for the satirical paper, I remember reading about it in high-school, It was a great idea, satire is an excellent way to reach people when other forms of communication fail. As generally the best idea is to throw an idea out there, and use some techniques to guide who you are persuading to come to the conclusion you desire. You can never force someone to truly believe you if you don't let them connect the dots themselves.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: Nemisous on January 18, 2012, 05:13:47 AM
for Cogs
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
for Xrain
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
that is all.
but getting back to topic, the population crisis will work itself out. most likely their will be huge viral outbreak. or as i said the world economy collapses and millions of ppl will starve. nature always seems to find a balance.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: Xrain on January 18, 2012, 06:30:25 AM
for Cogs
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
12 billion? the debt last time I checked the national debt was 15.246 trillion dollars, China currently holds 8% of the US debt, or around 1.2 Trillion. So there is no way in hell that china even comes close to holding 79% of our debt. If you are going to use statistics to back up your arguments, check them once or twice.

Good ole missiles. Yes you are correct, you can certainly just bristle your country with countless missiles and it would be pretty damn hard for others to do anything about it, but your cost skyrockets, and land based systems have much more limited mobility. The main reason you build a navy, is so you can do things at other locations than your home, or where land based systems cannot reach. Such as if someone decides to shut down your trade route beyond the range of your anti-ship missiles you are pretty much SOL. And no I would not recommend using a long range missile at this point, as some might interpret a missile of that caliber as a nuclear attack.

What a ship does for you is extends the range your missiles can go. It's pretty much identical to a land based system, but it happens to travel on the water. And ocean going craft have numerous distinct advantages to mobile land based systems. (a lot less trees, peat bogs, and rivers to hold you up). So it's never a simple matter of " I HAVE MISSILES, MISSILES KILL THINGS GOOD, I GET MOAR MISSILES".

Besides, if Navies and other forces were obsolete why would china be building Air-craft carriers, and at the same time a massive buildup of smaller vessels.

for Xrain
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
that is all.
but getting back to topic, the population crisis will work itself out. most likely their will be huge viral outbreak. or as i said the world economy collapses and millions of ppl will starve. nature always seems to find a balance.

I am well aware of what attrition rate is, I was attempting to say, since you were pulling people from a larger demographic during WWII. So naturally you would get an increase in unacceptable recruits. You are correct on the other hand, I am sure the requirements for what is required has gone down, since naturally they want a fully appointed force without resorting to conscription. Another thing you may not have considered is we have had significant gains in training effectiveness since WWII, so some of the decrease in Attrition rate might be due to a better capability to reform rectruits.

I would use the term "Modern Standards" somewhat gingerly when in reference to Russia's equipment. They have certainly been updated, but Russia still very much likes the tried and tried and tried and tired and true method. Main reason for this, is they do not have the same scale of a technological research base to vastly upgrade all of their platforms.

As far as US equipment goes, some of our military equipment descends from the 40's - 50's, some of it is from the cold war, and there is also plenty of new developments (read: drones). Like the Russians we also hold to tried and true methods when we can, but we also are actively developing new technologies. I can promise you that a vast majority of the avionics and sensors, are not from the cold war. We might use many of the same airframes as we did in the cold war, but many of the components would not be recognizable compared to the 80's version.

Force Multiplier is indeed a buzzword, but we had a technological edge over the Russians for most of the latter half of the cold war, and while the USSR collapsed we didn't experience the same hardships they had. We might not have the same fervent motivation as we did when we had to "Beat the Commies" We definitely haven't stood still. So trying to tell me that we have done nothing technological wise, except for sit on our ass and twiddle our thumbs since the cold war. It would just be a fallacy.

Heck with the rocket launch I worked on last November, its mission was to launch a prototype military comm satellite to vastly improve battlefield communication. Reducing the need for the helical antenna on a mountain, and a 30 lbs comm package, to a small handheld radio.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: cogsandspigots on January 18, 2012, 08:41:49 AM
Very long; Still read
Xrain, I love you.


Nemisous, I don't.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: Nemisous on January 18, 2012, 10:16:39 AM
I am well aware of what attrition rate is, I was attempting to say, since you were pulling people from a larger demographic during WWII. So naturally you would get an increase in unacceptable recruits. You are correct on the other hand, I am sure the requirements for what is required has gone down, since naturally they want a fully appointed force without resorting to conscription. Another thing you may not have considered is we have had significant gains in training effectiveness since WWII, so some of the decrease in Attrition rate might be due to a better capability to reform rectruits.

I would use the term "Modern Standards" somewhat gingerly when in reference to Russia's equipment. They have certainly been updated, but Russia still very much likes the tried and tried and tried and tired and true method. Main reason for this, is they do not have the same scale of a technological research base to vastly upgrade all of their platforms.

As far as US equipment goes, some of our military equipment descends from the 40's - 50's, some of it is from the cold war, and there is also plenty of new developments (read: drones). Like the Russians we also hold to tried and true methods when we can, but we also are actively developing new technologies. I can promise you that a vast majority of the avionics and sensors, are not from the cold war. We might use many of the same airframes as we did in the cold war, but many of the components would not be recognizable compared to the 80's version.

Force Multiplier is indeed a buzzword, but we had a technological edge over the Russians for most of the latter half of the cold war, and while the USSR collapsed we didn't experience the same hardships they had. We might not have the same fervent motivation as we did when we had to "Beat the Commies" We definitely haven't stood still. So trying to tell me that we have done nothing technological wise, except for sit on our ass and twiddle our thumbs since the cold war. It would just be a fallacy.

Heck with the rocket launch I worked on last November, its mission was to launch a prototype military comm satellite to vastly improve battlefield communication. Reducing the need for the helical antenna on a mountain, and a 30 lbs comm package, to a small handheld radio.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
but anyways i think we have stayed on this topic far to long on this subject. lets just say if the US doesn't quit its military industrial complex then it will suffer the same fate as Russia.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: cogsandspigots on January 18, 2012, 10:30:31 AM
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
but anyways i think we have stayed on this topic far to long on this subject. lets just say if the US doesn't quit its military industrial complex then it will suffer the same fate as Russia.
Epic Facepalm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Svwm_k9hYk#)
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: Cake Faice on January 18, 2012, 12:08:45 PM
Nemious, just stop arguing with Xrain. Period.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: Seb on January 18, 2012, 12:40:57 PM
too long, still fails

Nem, you clearly know WHAT you're talking about, but at the same time you don't. Just stop posting. The population will stabilize, the US is definitely one of the strongest (if not THE) militaries in the world, and no other country has any large say in what goes on in our economy.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: ·UηİŦ·· on January 18, 2012, 04:15:29 PM
It's a good thing Xrain is here, because Wikipedia isn't up and I'd be lost otherwise.

But I guess the thread is pretty much over.

Good read.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: Deacon on January 18, 2012, 06:04:39 PM
can't say shit.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: Xrain on January 18, 2012, 06:18:14 PM
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
but anyways i think we have stayed on this topic far to long on this subject. lets just say if the US doesn't quit its military industrial complex then it will suffer the same fate as Russia.

Ah yes the good ole "In my day I had to walk through 10 miles of snow and fight off bears with my bare hands" My question would be, is just because you are fat or skinny, does that make you useless to a military complex? In some ways training today probably is easier, in some cases it might just be that they found out all that holding water in the hot sun does, is give you heat stroke.

To me what makes sense is that basic training isn't serving the same purpose it had in WWII. The purpose of basic today seems more to hammer your mind into the way of thinking that the military wants, and then they have other schools (special forces training etc.) to really hone people down to what they want. While in WWII they needed lots of general purpose soldiers and fast. So they had basic be the one stop solution for getting soldiers trained. I can't really substantiate these claims as I haven't experienced how things were in WWII and today. But it seems like a plausible conclusion.


In the case of Russia, more of my experience is in the Space end of their industrial  complex. The NK-33 engine that they had developed for their N-1 rocket is a fantastic engine. However despite Aerojet contracting the Russians for more of these engines, Russia doesn't have the capability to manufacture them anymore. Another example is the Phobos-Grunt spacecraft that just fell back to earth a few days ago. It was a very ambitious mission and would have had amazing results if successful. However it seems that budgetary problems and half-handed engineering practices doomed the spacecraft.

And as a result Russia accused the US of using microwave emitters in Alaska to sabotage the craft. Instead of admitting a failure of design/manufacturing on their part. I never intended to said that Russian engineers stopped working at the collapse of the soviet union. My point was that most of their industral complex collapsed when the USSR did, and they had to spend time slowly building themselves back up to where they are now. While in the US we have some economic downturns, but the continuity of our industrial complex stays mostly the same.


As for the US aircraft, I'm going to stop you right there. The predator isn't the only successful aircraft to have been developed. It is certaintly a HIGHLY successful aircraft to have been developed, but even in the drone world there is a slew of highly successful aircraft. Like the Global Hawk, people just tend to hear more about the Predator as that tends to be what the use to shoot missiles at insurgents. And thus is in the news more often.
The F-22 is in no way a failure. It certently didn't meet their original expectations, but for that matter, neither did the Space Shuttle. For the F-22 its more of a case that we just arn't currently involved in conflicts that require it. If we got into a war with another superpower I imagine there would suddenly be plenty of missions for it, as it needs to go intercept other fighter craft.

F-22 like the F-35 the mainstream news just LOVES to pick holes in the aircraft. They always are going on about how OMG THEY HAVE TO DO FURTHER DEVELOPMENT AFTER ITS BEEN PUT INTO SERVICE. OMG IT HAS SOME DEVELOPMENT PROBLEMS. So they then start to call it a money pit, or case-and-point of military wasteful spending.

The reality is, this is what happens when you develop ANY new system. You always have problems. There hasn't been an engineering project in the history of mankind that hasn't experienced some sort of serious set-back or issue. That's just how things happen in the real world. To make matters worse, people always run with the expectation that things should always work the first time every time, and it obviously is a failure on the designers part for not foreseeing said issue.

I'm an Aerospace Engineer, So I will admit I am probably a little bit biased, but it irritates me to no end when people start making wild assumptions like "NASA DOSNT DO ANYTHING, NASA TAKES 99.9% OF THE FEDERAL BUDGET" etc. etc.

And your right, we are most likely using 80% of the airframes and basic armaments are still in use today as what we used in the gulf war. The Russians still use the AK-47 as a primary armament, and that was from 1947. Most of what has changed to day is what we use to gather and communicate information. I would say almost 80% of the information gathering/communication equipment that the military uses has changed since only 15 years ago.

As far as US military ships go, the biggest development would be the Aegis Combat system. Most of this development was done post end of cold war. And now we have almost 90 cruisers fitted with this system. Considering the Aegis is set to replace several previous ship classes, I would say this is a pretty significant development. Also the Aegis system was specifically design to combat anti-ship missiles. We also have the Stiletto stealth ships that are being manufactured, which are in some ways a descendant of the prototype Sea Shadow.

There are many reasons that can cause the US to collapse, and I would say overzealous military spending isn't one of them. I would agree that we shouldn't still be spending like we are at war, but it's important to maintain the industry. All of these Specialist designers for stealth technology and missile systems dont come out of nowhere. We need to maintain the industry we have to ensure that we retain the capability.

An example would be the Apollo era. After the last Apollo mission NASA pretty much went cold turkey, and stopped interplanetary human spaceflight. So now since all of that heritage and capability was lost over the years, we are still struggling to get it back.


It's never as simple as oh hey, lets just stop spending on military research and only do it when we really need it. Since if we did, and we did end up needing it, we wouldn't have the time to make all the mistakes required to build that industry back up.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: cogsandspigots on January 18, 2012, 06:47:24 PM
HNNNG.


That is all.

Ummmm.... Deacon...
You may want to take a trip to urban dictionary sometime soon.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: ursus on January 18, 2012, 06:54:15 PM
One does not simply walk into a verbal debate with Xrain.
Title: Re: Solve over-population in 1 easy step.
Post by: Cheesicle on January 18, 2012, 07:17:23 PM
One does not simply walk into a verbal debate with Xrain.

One does not simply

Read Xrain's entire post

Well i don't at least ;_;