.:`=-~rANdOm~`-=:. Game Servers (Read Only) > Discussion
[Intelligent Discussion] Why the rNd rank system is broken.
Infinimint:
Argument: The rNd rank system is broken and needs reform.
Alright, so I've been around for about a year now and one of the largest things I've come to notice is how broken the rank system is. On a forum/server, a rank system is put into place in order to allow people to officially have a particular role and for them to fulfill said role. This is not how it is currently operating. Instead, people are circlejerking trying to get higher ranks in order to look better on an imaginary social ladder.
What I am proposing is that the rank system be changed so that people have to EARN their rank and WORK to keep their rank. Taking a look at the lists of VIP's & Admin's, there's plenty of people who I (and many others) haven't even met and don't even know who they are or why they even have their rank. Not to mention the fact that many people will be inactive for extensive periods of time making their rank effectively meaningless.
Another proposition is that more specific ranks be introduced. For example, why the hell are admins moderating. The role of an admin isn't to just be a moderator. There's a role for that (Hint: Moderator, Global Moderator). Administrators are supposed to administrate. This means managing the forum itself (in contrast to managing it's members) and maintaining a position of authority. Another role would be contributor. A lot of people contribute a lot to rNd and feel the need for the Admin role (which is basically a GM anyway), when in reality, instead of focusing on contributing, they now have to focus on moderating. And if they don't moderate, what the hell is the point of giving them the title?
Also, I often see people who have Admin rank on the forum, but are never even seen. I ask who they are and people say, "Oh, they're always on Gmod", etc. If that's the case, and they aren't even active on the forum at all, why do they really even need a forum rank. A better thing to do would be to just give them a title. This is a vice-versa kind of thing.
Forum rank is not put in place to be a social rank. Nobody gives a shit if you're a "cool person", that does not make you deserving of a rank. Nobody gives a shit if you've "been around for a long time", if you go inactive for extensive periods of time, you obviously aren't reliable enough to hold a rank. I swear it's like every other day someone says, "Woah, look at all those people who have Admin, I should go apply too!". It makes no damn sense.
Q & A:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)Why are you trying to make Coolz' life so difficult?
I'm not trying to ;-;
Which ranks are you suggesting?
Owner, Administrator, Developer, Moderator (or Global Moderator), Contributor, Regular
What are the roles of those ranks?
Owner: Coolzeldad :3
Admin: Administrate the forum/servers.
Developer: Develops on either the rNd site(s), or on the servers.
Moderator: Moderates the forum/servers to remove abusive users/posts, move posts, etc. General moderation.
Contributor: Creates new content regularly, and a very active participant in rNd activities.
Regular: A regular member of the community. (although I don't really see a purpose for this "title")
You're new and your opinion doesn't matter, just leave.
Do you really think I care how new I am? Being new doesn't detract from me being a human being. Take your unintellectual elitist self elsewhere.
You only made this post because you want X rank.
Really? I mean, really? If I wanted a rank I would have applied for it, which is tempting since that seems to be what everyone is doing nowadays. Not to mention the fact that I don't deserve any rank since I don't really do anything besides hang out on TeamSpeak, Minecraft, and StarCraft, most of which is separate from rNd anyway.
But what about <INSERT INACTIVE MEMBER HERE>? He/She's been here forever!
And? They'll always be able to come back and try to re-earn it, but if they're inactive their rank is meaningless.
Is this post about <INSERT MEMBER NAME, OR RECENT APPLICANT NAME HERE>?
This is not for anyone specifically, but rather to address the community and it's leadership as a whole.
Anything else regarding the rank system?
Yes, actually. It would be very helpful to have a page on the site that lists members whom are involved in each group on both the site and servers.
Sabb:
--- Quote from: Infinimint on September 10, 2013, 01:29:53 PM ---Also, I often see people who have Admin rank on the forum, but are never even seen.
--- End quote ---
Well with 14 hours on Gmod most of which I believe is not on RND if any at all, I guess that makes sense.
Personally I'm not going to really discuss much of what you recommended seeing as your involvement in RND mostly starts and ends with TeamSpeak, which is like a side-product of the game servers. Forums as well are the same situation. It seems far too controlling and unnecessary to come in without having much of any experience in the actual game and by what it sounds like little or no discussion with ranked members to maybe understand why the system is the way it is and totally say everything is broken and nothing makes sense and everyone should do this and this and this and your ranks are totally wrong and admin is only a social status and no one works etc, etc. People absolutely don't earn rank the way you've said, they mostly earn it for the right reasons, to be able to aid the servers and contribute something beneficial that they might not be able to do without the rank.
All of the people who are admin have had a long on-going contribution to RND in aiding in many way most of which you're understandably ignorant to.
Since you've been in RND for such a short time and secluded to Teamspeak and occasionally the public forum boards you'd obviously be unaware of the thought the goes into decisions made mainly regarding promotions and the rank system and the like. Currently I see no need to change anything with the system as a lot has changed in the servers for some time now. A lot of players have come and gone and we have a very different playerbase now. At the time though, coolz and everyone actually make a lot of changes and suggestions and tweaked the system to the way it needed to be and it actually work out well in my opinion. Admins also aren't just promoted over time at all, some of our oldest members don't have and may never have admin. People are promoted if it seems they can contribute something to RND though whether it be in time in moderation or in creating custom content, etc.
Overall though the rank system completely serves its purpose for us. If the servers were still as they were 3 years ago, I'm sure more changes would be made to the system, but that's not the case and it doesn't seem required is all. RND also actually has very few ranked member in general excluding Regular compared to most more popular servers.
I do think you should consider what's mentioned here by me and I'm sure probably other members as you see a very limited amount of what's put into everything just from TeamSpeak and maybe a bit of the forums. It'd be nice if you weren't to just assume that we're all a bunch of morons that need guidance because they clearly don't know how to run a successful gaming community.
You might also want to consider how aggressive your post may seem, primarily from that Q&A.
Infinimint:
--- Quote from: Sabb on September 10, 2013, 01:57:36 PM ---Well with 14 hours on Gmod most of which I believe is not on RND if any at all, I guess that makes sense.
--- End quote ---
I'm well aware of how long I spend on GMod and addressed it in the Q&A. I know that I don't go on the GMod server.
--- Quote from: Sabb on September 10, 2013, 01:57:36 PM ---Personally I'm not going to really discuss much of what you recommended seeing as your involvement in RND mostly starts and ends with TeamSpeak, which is like a side-product of the game servers. Forums as well are the same situation. It seems far too controlling and unnecessary to come in without having much of any experience in the actual game and by what it sounds like little or no discussion with ranked members to maybe understand why the system is the way it is and totally say everything is broken and nothing makes sense and everyone should do this and this and this and your ranks are totally wrong and admin is only a social status and no one works etc, etc.
--- End quote ---
Little or no discussion? You do realize who else goes on TeamSpeak, right? You can't be serious. I've been a moderator on several forums, it doesn't take a genius to know how a forum operates. Having experience in a game has nothing to do with having experience with forums. Even if you wanted to go there, however, it once again doesn't take a genius to know how administration and moderation works in games.
I never told anyone to do anything. This entire post is the discussion of a suggestion.
As for "ranks are totally wrong and admin is only a social status and no one works etc, etc.", my argument is that they should be changed for the betterment of the forum and servers. People have been applying for admin as a sort of social status (go take a look for yourself), and the people who are inactive and remain inactive, are in fact, not doing much of anything. Does that make them bad people who should die in fire? No. But it does mean that they probably don't need to be in a role of leadership since it obviously cannot be held stably and consistently.
--- Quote from: Sabb on September 10, 2013, 01:57:36 PM ---People absolutely don't earn rank the way you've said, they mostly earn it for the right reasons, to be able to aid the servers and contribute something beneficial that they might not be able to do without the rank.
All of the people who are admin have had a long on-going contribution to RND in aiding in many way most of which you're understandably ignorant to.
--- End quote ---
You obviously didn't read my entire post. I mentioned that many of the things that people do shouldn't require a title of admin, but rather a more specific title such as "Contributor".
An administrator's duties are not necessarily just to contribute or ban people or delete posts, or any of that. An administrator is somebody who is held responsible for and manages a business, organization, etc. Most of the current "Admins" are filling the role of moderators and contributors. It's very vague.
--- Quote from: Sabb on September 10, 2013, 01:57:36 PM ---Since you've been in RND for such a short time and secluded to Teamspeak and occasionally the public forum boards you'd obviously be unaware of the thought the goes into decisions made mainly regarding promotions and the rank system and the like.
--- End quote ---
Knowing an admin in real life and talking to them often gives me a large idea of how it's handled privately. It's not as complex as you try to make it sound. Not only that, but heading on over to the Applications section of the forum is a fairly easy way to see how it's handled publicly as well.
--- Quote from: Sabb on September 10, 2013, 01:57:36 PM ---Currently I see no need to change anything with the system as a lot has changed in the servers for some time now. A lot of players have come and gone and we have a very different playerbase now.
--- End quote ---
Exactly, and with the changes of who plays, also came changes to who "administrates" (I'm using the term vaguely to refer to Admins/VIPs). Some are inactive and are not contributing/administrating/<insert key role of an admin here>. Keeping them in their positions makes no sense.
--- Quote from: Sabb on September 10, 2013, 01:57:36 PM --- At the time though, coolz and everyone actually make a lot of changes and suggestions and tweaked the system to the way it needed to be and it actually work out well in my opinion. Admins also aren't just promoted over time at all, some of our oldest members don't have and may never have admin. People are promoted if it seems they can contribute something to RND though whether it be in time in moderation or in creating custom content, etc.
--- End quote ---
Reiterating my point, contributions, creations, etc. is not equal to administration nor moderation. If that's the requirement then I might as well bust out PhotoShop and work my way to admin while casually playing a video game (GMod)...
--- Quote from: Sabb on September 10, 2013, 01:57:36 PM ---Overall though the rank system completely serves its purpose for us. If the servers were still as they were 3 years ago, I'm sure more changes would be made to the system, but that's not the case and it doesn't seem required is all. RND also actually has very few ranked member in general excluding Regular compared to most more popular servers.
--- End quote ---
Well that's wishful thinking. If a farmer doesn't think his crops will grow due to the dry season, and doesn't plant his seeds, they'll have a 0% chance to grow. Same thing. If changes aren't to be considered (note that I didn't say made, I said considered), then neither will rNd. Sure, there's a possibility of low growth, but if the effort is put in, the chances are much higher (Also, please note that I'm not disregarding any effort that is currently put in. I'm appreciative of how much some people put into rNd. I'm referring to effort pertaining to growth of the site and community as a whole, specifically. I've noticed coolz has been changing a lot of things lately, many of those things relating to organization and growth, so I've been trying to make suggestions here and there from an end-user perspective to try and help.).
--- Quote from: Sabb on September 10, 2013, 01:57:36 PM ---I do think you should consider what's mentioned here by me and I'm sure probably other members as you see a very limited amount of what's put into everything just from TeamSpeak and maybe a bit of the forums. It'd be nice if you weren't to just assume that we're all a bunch of morons that need guidance because they clearly don't know how to run a successful gaming community.
--- End quote ---
I never called anyone a name. Thank you for putting words in my mouth, though. I never said that anyone needed my "guidance" by any means, this is a discussion, not a directive. Also, you're last sentence is contradictive to the previous statement of yours that I addressed. You just said how it hasn't been as successful as it was 3 years ago and now you're saying that it is successful?
--- Quote from: Sabb on September 10, 2013, 01:57:36 PM ---You might also want to consider how aggressive your post may seem, primarily from that Q&A.
--- End quote ---
I agree. However, seeing how easy it is for a shitstorm to start on this forum, I felt it was necessary.
Sabb:
--- Quote from: Infinimint on September 10, 2013, 03:34:33 PM ---I'm well aware of how long I spend on GMod and addressed it in the Q&A. I know that I don't go on the GMod server.
Little or no discussion? You do realize who else goes on TeamSpeak, right? You can't be serious. I've been a moderator on several forums, it doesn't take a genius to know how a forum operates. Having experience in a game has nothing to do with having experience with forums. Even if you wanted to go there, however, it once again doesn't take a genius to know how administration and moderation works in games.
I never told anyone to do anything. This entire post is the discussion of a suggestion.
As for "ranks are totally wrong and admin is only a social status and no one works etc, etc.", my argument is that they should be changed for the betterment of the forum and servers. People have been applying for admin as a sort of social status (go take a look for yourself), and the people who are inactive and remain inactive, are in fact, not doing much of anything. Does that make them bad people who should die in fire? No. But it does mean that they probably don't need to be in a role of leadership since it obviously cannot be held stably and consistently.
You obviously didn't read my entire post. I mentioned that many of the things that people do shouldn't require a title of admin, but rather a more specific title such as "Contributor".
An administrator's duties are not necessarily just to contribute or ban people or delete posts, or any of that. An administrator is somebody who is held responsible for and manages a business, organization, etc. Most of the current "Admins" are filling the role of moderators and contributors. It's very vague.
Knowing an admin in real life and talking to them often gives me a large idea of how it's handled privately. It's not as complex as you try to make it sound. Not only that, but heading on over to the Applications section of the forum is a fairly easy way to see how it's handled publicly as well.
Exactly, and with the changes of who plays, also came changes to who "administrates" (I'm using the term vaguely to refer to Admins/VIPs). Some are inactive and are not contributing/administrating/<insert key role of an admin here>. Keeping them in their positions makes no sense.
Reiterating my point, contributions, creations, etc. is not equal to administration nor moderation. If that's the requirement then I might as well bust out PhotoShop and work my way to admin while casually playing a video game (GMod)...
Well that's wishful thinking. If a farmer doesn't think his crops will grow due to the dry season, and doesn't plant his seeds, they'll have a 0% chance to grow. Same thing. If changes aren't to be considered (note that I didn't say made, I said considered), then neither will rNd. Sure, there's a possibility of low growth, but if the effort is put in, the chances are much higher (Also, please note that I'm not disregarding any effort that is currently put in. I'm appreciative of how much some people put into rNd. I'm referring to effort pertaining to growth of the site and community as a whole, specifically. I've noticed coolz has been changing a lot of things lately, many of those things relating to organization and growth, so I've been trying to make suggestions here and there from an end-user perspective to try and help.).
I never called anyone a name. Thank you for putting words in my mouth, though. I never said that anyone needed my "guidance" by any means, this is a discussion, not a directive. Also, you're last sentence is contradictive to the previous statement of yours that I addressed. You just said how it hasn't been as successful as it was 3 years ago and now you're saying that it is successful?
I agree. However, seeing how easy it is for a shitstorm to start on this forum, I felt it was necessary.
--- End quote ---
Too lazy to go through and add all the quotes but I addressed everything you said from start to finish.
I am aware of who you speak to on TeamSpeak obviously as it includes me. You being a moderator on forums means nothing in this situations as it's not our forum. I have also been a moderator on several other forums, several other gaming servers but the difference is that I realize not everyone or every server has to function the same to be successful. I'm also not saying having experience in the game has anything to do with the forums, I'm implying that the ranks are focused around the servers, not the forums. At least that's my understanding of it. I believe the only reason coolz even has ranks is to manage the servers and that the moderation on the forums just came second because it makes sense. You get admin in the server, you get admin on the forums since someone has to help him with both jobs and he already trusts that individual.
A lot of what I said is directed at your lack of experience with the actually community istelf and the community WITHIN the servers, not just TeamSpeak. You not understanding goals and expectations we may have obviously will make it more difficult for you to make an appropriate suggestion. Not saying that you can't suggest anything, but you've come across extremely opinionated in your first post and I personally feel like you're nearly insulting what's in place and not considering that there may be reasons for it.
I understand what your argument is, I simply disagree with it. People can apply for admin all they want. There's no reason they shouldn't be able to. Those people are simply not accepted.
As for the inactivity:
http://forum.randomgs.com/index.php?topic=16744.msg219476#msg219476
--- Quote from: coolzeldad on September 09, 2013, 12:08:07 PM ---I have given much more lenient time frames for people in both VIP and Admin positions. Good people are good people until proven otherwise by malicious behavior or something similar; do not be so stringent on the technicalities.
In your world people would be forced to post to retain their ranks, which I am sure they would do. I am not here to force anybody to do anything, that is controlling and I do not admire that behavior.
Also, every VIP privilege is a privilege, one that I have given, and that specific one is one VIPs have fought for in the past in order to have that voice.
--- End quote ---
Inactivity is obviously not something that is wanted by ranked members and they sometimes do get demoted for that, but when you think of it, who cares? It's not their job. Meant to include that in my first post. Though I actually planned to leave my first post to 3 sentences then it turned into that, oh well. As I was saying, the worst thing inactivity does is maybe removes some wanted help. That can't be prevented and will always happen. At least those people who are inactive will actually maybe stop by every now and then and still be able to contribute a small something, so it's not totally wasted. If they're demoted for inactivity though, the only difference is that there is a very small amount of help potentially being lost. One way or another, not a big deal or a priority imo. That's how I view it though, none of what I'm saying is necessarily coolz' view of course.
I did read you entire post. I disagree with your suggestion, sorry. I would challenge you to give examples of these people but I don't want to pull others into this unfortunately. I feel adding a bunch of pretty coloured names to people isn't necessary. If they're contributing stuff to be known for that's cool, they'll already be known for it. People are promoted when it enables them to do more with the rank and capabilities they have.
RND is not a professional business, organization, or any of the sorts. We can modify the term admin to our needs, as does nearly every gaming servers, community, etc. Your priorities in this are simply different than what I believe coolz' are.
The point is that coolz has his own reasons for wanting the ranks the way they are. His reasons are different than yours, as I see it.
That's fine, your big changes actually do nothing to solve inactivity. It's simple to demote inactive players but innecessary work at the same time, imo.
I'm aware of what you're implying but I'm trying to avoid saying anything that might offend other people or get other people involved in what I'm saying so I'll address that to you personally when I can.
I don't see how that's wishful thinking at all. All I'm saying is that the rank system is suitable for what we need. If the servers had a different player base and an extremely larger amount of players, then I would be urging for changes to be made as well and I have in the past. I also recently made a suggestion to disconnect the rank between admin in-game and moderator on the forums. In the past it's been a major issue deciding when to promote because of the different people on the servers opposed to the forums/TS. So I can agree with that to a degree, but I also realized that it's not really all that important. If we were in urgent need of admins, then I think it'd help a lot, but I don't think we are.
Aggressive doesn't mean "i called him a name." I put no words in your mouth lol, if I felt your post was aggressive that's my opinion, not yours'?
It was blatant sarcasm. I also didn't say they haven't been successful for 3 years, I just said the playerbase was different. More recently the number of players dropped.
This isn't a shitstorm. I like discussing/debating stuff with people. I'll be honest, your post didn't exactly sit well with me, but I'm not angered or trying to anger you or anything of that sorts. I'm just adressing what you've posted with my opinion. Even if I was absolutely okay with how you addressed your suggestion I'd still be challenging it. Do believe that's generally what happens with suggestions.
coolzeldad:
Every rank has been individually configured specifically for the duties that I think that rank should be qualified to have, based upon the people who currently hold that rank.
There are badges to notify how the user has contributed to the forums or community in general and a stats system to see how active the player is over time.
As with any place, rNd is different and has different requirements for operation that have led me to tailor the privileges accordingly and also in response to players' suggestions over the years.
Many things have been tried and I am always open to suggestions but the current system satisfies the requirements for running the community.
Adding more labels in between doesn't necessarily solve the problem if there is one.
The Admins that you see here are a different kind of "Admin" and may not coincide with the label that is referenced in your head, but with a little time here I think it will become clear to the responsibilities of each title. This also applies to VIPs and Super Admins and Regulars.
While there are many admin applications, I am the one who makes the final decision. I do look at suggestions and converse with my current administration team about each one long before I make any decisions. I do this because this rank has a lot of potential, and I need to be able to have a certain high level of trust with the individual in order to rely on them for certain contributions and administration.
I do not base my decisions upon popularity in a group and I consult many opinions to avoid the "circlejerk" influence you are describing that many other communities suffer from.
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