US Drones

[blαh2355]

I saw a very interesting article/slideshow about drones in the U.S. Hope you guys find it interesting too.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Photo-Galleries/In-Pictures/The-future-of-drones-in-the-US#705885

[Monorail Cat]

On the topic of drones spying on American citizens:  I find this shit very irritating.  Sure, it's kinda extreme, but seriously, they are protecting us from potential terrorist threats.  I would rather have that than my "privacy".  Plus, if I have nothing to hide, why the hell should I worry?

It's just like how people freak out about the full-body airport security scanners, teachers with weapons at schools, the NSA "scandal", and drug tests.  I mean, if the people are being good, not doing drugs, not bringing weapons on planes, not planning to be terrorists, WHY THE HELL do they care if there is security? 

The media always tries to twist information. 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Most logical people know this about the Treyvon Martin case.  However, that is over, and I don't want to listen to it anymore.

They give facts, but not complete facts.  They twist public opinion.  The sad thing is, once the people who believe everything they see are convinced by media, they spread the opinion, and there's almost nothing that can be done to change their minds. 

A great example is public opinion of Texas.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As a Texan, I can say "HELL YEAH, there are complete idiots in my state!" 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It's just like how there are some AWESOME black people I know, but there are others who act like punks and druggies, and I can't stand them!  IT GOES THE SAME WAY FOR WHITE PEOPLE.  I have great white friends, but the dope-head gangsters are just idiots to me.

However, the media draws stereotypes about Texans as idiotic, violent people. 

A prime example is the media portrayal of the explosion of the West fertilizer plant in Texas just a few months ago.  The media portrayed the firemen as dumb, not acting correctly, and staying on-site too long.  The truth is, they were volunteer firemen, not hired.  That means they are regular people who sign up to help whenever needed.  They were trying to keep the people safe by attacking the fire, and had no idea that the plant was about to explode. 

In addition to criticizing the firemen, who sacrificed their lives trying to save the people, the media tries to back the idea up that Texans are irresponsible by describing the safety flaws of the factory owner.  They simply focus on that point, and therefore, the people do too.  They never give hint that there are hundreds of other factories and facilities across the USA that fail to meet safety requirements.  They just want to continue painting Texas as dumb.


Yet another example is the event of the Waco Siege in the early 1990's. 

The media portrays it as this:  there was a religious gathering that local sheriffs and police officials decided was illegal, so they set fire to the building the group was inside, and killed 76 men, women, and children.

What actually happened: The FBI was tracking the cult's leader for illegal activities, such as weapon violations and polygamy.  It was discovered they were in the Branch Davidian building, so they obtained warrants to raid the building.  When the cult found out they were about to be raided, they armed themselves and started shooting at the FBI agents.  The FBI set siege on the building for 51 days.  They were, with help of local law enforcement, attempting to compromise with the cult's leader.  After the conflict was escalated, the building caught fire and burned down.

The differences:  The media says they local law enforcement was responsible for the murder of innocent people, while actually, the FBI was following procedure to bring down a criminal, who was practicing polygamy, rape, and weapon violations.  The building caught fire (from unknown cause) and killed many people inside, including the leader.

Because the people watching the news saw only what they said, they believed that Texans were murderous maniacs.

The moral is:  Don't believe everything you see on CNN or FOX.  They never give the full story.  Always do your own research.  This was a very long rant to prove a small point, but hey, thanks if you read it and understand it.  Even more thanks if I changed your opinion of us Texans!

Phew.  I just needed that off of my chest.  /end rant. 

[Tiger Guy]

On the topic of drones spying on American citizens:  I find this shit very irritating.  Sure, it's kinda extreme, but seriously, they are protecting us from potential terrorist threats.  I would rather have that than my "privacy".  Plus, if I have nothing to hide, why the hell should I worry?

It's just like how people freak out about the full-body airport security scanners, teachers with weapons at schools, the NSA "scandal", and drug tests.  I mean, if the people are being good, not doing drugs, not bringing weapons on planes, not planning to be terrorists, WHY THE HELL do they care if there is security? 

The media always tries to twist information. 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Most logical people know this about the Treyvon Martin case.  However, that is over, and I don't want to listen to it anymore.

They give facts, but not complete facts.  They twist public opinion.  The sad thing is, once the people who believe everything they see are convinced by media, they spread the opinion, and there's almost nothing that can be done to change their minds. 

A great example is public opinion of Texas.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As a Texan, I can say "HELL YEAH, there are complete idiots in my state!" 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It's just like how there are some AWESOME black people I know, but there are others who act like punks and druggies, and I can't stand them!  IT GOES THE SAME WAY FOR WHITE PEOPLE.  I have great white friends, but the dope-head gangsters are just idiots to me.

However, the media draws stereotypes about Texans as idiotic, violent people. 

A prime example is the media portrayal of the explosion of the West fertilizer plant in Texas just a few months ago.  The media portrayed the firemen as dumb, not acting correctly, and staying on-site too long.  The truth is, they were volunteer firemen, not hired.  That means they are regular people who sign up to help whenever needed.  They were trying to keep the people safe by attacking the fire, and had no idea that the plant was about to explode. 

In addition to criticizing the firemen, who sacrificed their lives trying to save the people, the media tries to back the idea up that Texans are irresponsible by describing the safety flaws of the factory owner.  They simply focus on that point, and therefore, the people do too.  They never give hint that there are hundreds of other factories and facilities across the USA that fail to meet safety requirements.  They just want to continue painting Texas as dumb.


Yet another example is the event of the Waco Siege in the early 1990's. 

The media portrays it as this:  there was a religious gathering that local sheriffs and police officials decided was illegal, so they set fire to the building the group was inside, and killed 76 men, women, and children.

What actually happened: The FBI was tracking the cult's leader for illegal activities, such as weapon violations and polygamy.  It was discovered they were in the Branch Davidian building, so they obtained warrants to raid the building.  When the cult found out they were about to be raided, they armed themselves and started shooting at the FBI agents.  The FBI set siege on the building for 51 days.  They were, with help of local law enforcement, attempting to compromise with the cult's leader.  After the conflict was escalated, the building caught fire and burned down.

The differences:  The media says they local law enforcement was responsible for the murder of innocent people, while actually, the FBI was following procedure to bring down a criminal, who was practicing polygamy, rape, and weapon violations.  The building caught fire (from unknown cause) and killed many people inside, including the leader.

Because the people watching the news saw only what they said, they believed that Texans were murderous maniacs.

The moral is:  Don't believe everything you see on CNN or FOX.  They never give the full story.  Always do your own research.  This was a very long rant to prove a small point, but hey, thanks if you read it and understand it.  Even more thanks if I changed your opinion of us Texans!

Phew.  I just needed that off of my chest.  /end rant.

“Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.” ― Benjamin Franklin
“All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.” ― Thomas Jefferson

Saying "I have nothing to hide, so why the hell should I worry?" if naive as fuck. Sure, you may not be ashamed of what you do in your spare time, most people aren't, but that doesn't give the government the right to spy on its citizens. No matter how much of a good citizen you are, one day you'll do something the government doesn't want you to do. In a country that doesn't excessively spy on its citizens, nothing bad will probably happen to you (unless you do something that is obviously against the law.) In a country that does excessively spy, 99.9% of the time they won't let it slide. Whether they blackmail you, arrest you, execute you, put you on a watch list, etc. it's only to establish more of a foothold on your life.

You may doubt that this would actually happen, but it will if the government gets a foothold on security like this; it's happened in the past, and will happen in the future. Reminds me of a post I saw on ribbit once.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I live in a country generally assumed to be a dictatorship. One of the Arab spring countries. I have lived through curfews and have seen the outcomes of the sort of surveillance now being revealed in the US. People here talking about curfews aren't realizing what that actually FEELS like. It isn't about having to go inside, and the practicality of that. It's about creating the feeling that everyone, everything is watching. A few points:

1) the purpose of this surveillance from the governments point of view is to control enemies of the state. Not terrorists. People who are coalescing around ideas that would destabilize the status quo. These could be religious ideas. These could be groups like anon who are too good with tech for the governments liking. It makes it very easy to know who these people are. It also makes it very simple to control these people.

Lets say you are a college student and you get in with some people who want to stop farming practices that hurt animals. So you make a plan and go to protest these practices. You get there, and wow, the protest is huge. You never expected this, you were just goofing off. Well now everyone who was there is suspect. Even though you technically had the right to protest, you're now considered a dangerous person.

With this tech in place, the government doesn't have to put you in jail. They can do something more sinister. They can just email you a sexy picture you took with a girlfriend. Or they can email you a note saying that they can prove your dad is cheating on his taxes. Or they can threaten to get your dad fired. All you have to do, the email says, is help them catch your friends in the group. You have to report back every week, or you dad might lose his job. So you do. You turn in your friends and even though they try to keep meetings off grid, you're reporting on them to protect your dad.

2) Let's say number one goes on. The country is a weird place now. Really weird. Pretty soon, a movement springs up like occupy, except its bigger this time. People are really serious, and they are saying they want a government without this power. I guess people are realizing that it is a serious deal. You see on the news that tear gas was fired. Your friend calls you, frantic. They're shooting people. Oh my god. you never signed up for this. You say, fuck it. My dad might lose his job but I won't be responsible for anyone dying. That's going too far. You refuse to report anymore. You just stop going to meetings. You stay at home, and try not to watch the news. Three days later, police come to your door and arrest you. They confiscate your computer and phones, and they beat you up a bit. No one can help you so they all just sit quietly. They know if they say anything they're next. This happened in the country I live in. It is not a joke.

3) Its hard to say how long you were in there. What you saw was horrible. Most of the time, you only heard screams. People begging to be killed. Noises you've never heard before. You, you were lucky. You got kicked every day when they threw your moldy food at you, but no one shocked you. No one used sexual violence on you, at least that you remember. There were some times they gave you pills, and you can't say for sure what happened then. To be honest, sometimes the pills were the best part of your day, because at least then you didn't feel anything. You have scars on you from the way you were treated. You learn in prison that torture is now common. But everyone who uploads videos or pictures of this torture is labeled a leaker. Its considered a threat to national security. Pretty soon, a cut you got on your leg is looking really bad. You think it's infected. There were no doctors in prison, and it was so overcrowded, who knows what got in the cut. You go to the doctor, but he refuses to see you. He knows if he does the government can see the records that he treated you. Even you calling his office prompts a visit from the local police.

You decide to go home and see your parents. Maybe they can help. This leg is getting really bad. You get to their house. They aren't home. You can't reach them no matter how hard you try. A neighbor pulls you aside, and he quickly tells you they were arrested three weeks ago and haven't been seen since. You vaguely remember mentioning to them on the phone you were going to that protest. Even your little brother isn't there.

4) Is this even really happening? You look at the news. Sports scores. Celebrity news. It's like nothing is wrong. What the hell is going on? A stranger smirks at you reading the paper. You lose it. You shout at him "fuck you dude what are you laughing at can't you see I've got a fucking wound on my leg?"

"Sorry," he says. "I just didn't know anyone read the news anymore." There haven't been any real journalists for months. They're all in jail.

Everyone walking around is scared. They can't talk to anyone else because they don't know who is reporting for the government. Hell, at one time YOU were reporting for the government. Maybe they just want their kid to get through school. Maybe they want to keep their job. Maybe they're sick and want to be able to visit the doctor. It's always a simple reason. Good people always do bad things for simple reasons.

You want to protest. You want your family back. You need help for your leg. This is way beyond anything you ever wanted. It started because you just wanted to see fair treatment in farms. Now you're basically considered a terrorist, and everyone around you might be reporting on you. You definitely can't use a phone or email. You can't get a job. You can't even trust people face to face anymore. On every corner, there are people with guns. They are as scared as you are. They just don't want to lose their jobs. They don't want to be labeled as traitors.

This all happened in the country where I live.

You want to know why revolutions happen? Because little by little by little things get worse and worse. But this thing that is happening now is big. This is the key ingredient. This allows them to know everything they need to know to accomplish the above. The fact that they are doing it is proof that they are the sort of people who might use it in the way I described. In the country I live in, they also claimed it was for the safety of the people. Same in Soviet Russia. Same in East Germany. In fact, that is always the excuse that is used to surveil everyone. But it has never ONCE proven to be the reality.

Maybe Obama won't do it. Maybe the next guy won't, or the one after him. Maybe this story isn't about you. Maybe it happens 10 or 20 years from now, when a big war is happening, or after another big attack. Maybe it's about your daughter or your son. We just don't know yet. But what we do know is that right now, in this moment we have a choice. Are we okay with this, or not? Do we want this power to exist, or not?

You know for me, the reason I'm upset is that I grew up in school saying the pledge of allegiance. I was taught that the United States meant "liberty and justice for all." You get older, you learn that in this country we define that phrase based on the constitution. That's what tells us what liberty is and what justice is. Well, the government just violated that ideal. So if they aren't standing for liberty and justice anymore, what are they standing for? Safety?

Ask yourself a question. In the story I told above, does anyone sound safe?

I didn't make anything up. These things happened to people I know. We used to think it couldn't happen in America. But guess what? It's starting to happen.

I actually get really upset when people say "I don't have anything to hide. Let them read everything." People saying that have no idea what they are bringing down on their own heads. They are naive, and we need to listen to people in other countries who are clearly telling us that this is a horrible horrible sign and it is time to stand up and say no.

Nothing good comes from excessive spying, unless you want to live in an Authoritarian police state.

[Tezuni]

In Deer Trail Colorado you can buy a permit for $25 to legally shoot down US federal drones, and you get paid $100 if you bring in the nose or the tail piece.

And you have to use a 12 gauge shotgun.

[Prox]

On the topic of drones spying on American citizens:  I find this shit very irritating.  Sure, it's kinda extreme, but seriously, they are protecting us from potential terrorist threats.  I would rather have that than my "privacy".  Plus, if I have nothing to hide, why the hell should I worry?

The moral is:  Don't believe everything you see on CNN or FOX.  They never give the full story.  Always do your own research.  This was a very long rant to prove a small point, but hey, thanks if you read it and understand it.

That is exactly what you need to do.

[Tezuni]

Saying you have nothing to hide or its to protect us from terrorism are pretty bad arguments.  I don't want a drone flying over my head.  Just the other day a crashed drone that made a huge explosion was on the news.  This was in the US, and luckily nobody was close enough to get hurt, but it was filmed by someone nearby.  And drones aren't going to save you from terrorists.  If mass surveillance, (which has been going on since Bush) or drones worked, we wouldn't know the name Tsarnaev.  You should never be willing to give up privacy for 'security', especially when it doesn't work.  Also, America isn't the only country targeting by terrorism.  Spain, france, etc.  They're OK.  We don't need drones.  And you shouldn't want them.

[Monorail Cat]

Yeah, the way you guys put it, that made a bit more sense to me.   It's too easy to show myself as an idiot.  Maybe I'll stop posting when I'm sleeping on the keyboard.  XD

[Xrain]

For the record drone (they are called Unmanned Ariel Systems (UASs)) use in the US for the most part is not for spying on people, or shooting at terrorists. I personally don't really agree with using UAS's to missile people in foreign countries.

I have personal experience with civilian use of UASs. The primary use I've seen personally for them is monitoring seals and other animals, and not monitoring people. They are handy since 1. They are quiet enough not to scare away all the seals (vs. a Super Cub flying at 100 ft.) 2. They are substantially safer, since the places seals hang out are near cliffs and such (places you don't want to fly a Super Cub at 100ft; 3. They are substantially cheaper to purchase and operate to achieve the same end product. It's frustrating since military use of them is a pretty small usage overall (look at the slide show it quotes 5% for military usage) and it gets so much attention that everyone assumes that people for who want to use them all want to do is spy on you sunning yourself naked in your yard and missileing people.

So I don't think it would be useful banning these systems since there is such a large potential for them to do good and useful things. Banning them would be like banning all white box vans because the CIA might use one as a surveillance van. Yes they will get abused by some people, just like every other single creation made by man (see Oculus Rift thread), so that's not really a good enough reason to dismiss them out of hand.

Also all of the kinds of surveillance that can be done with a UAS can also be done with existing technology. Like going to the top of hills to look in your yard, or helicopters.

[Prox]

There is no doubt about usefulness of a drone and I too don't think they should be banned. It's not the use of drones in general that I disagree with it's their use in such things as spying on citizens.

[Tezuni]

A little background on drone history:

Defense contractors make billions off the drone industry each year, it's just another tool that is used in war.  Companies like Lockheed Martin profit off war.

There's a huge motive to make armed drones, that have already killed hundreds of children, civilians, and even a few american citizens overseas.


It's great technology, but the potential and underlying motive for abuse is just too great.

Call me paranoid, but I don't have any faith in drones over American skies, ever.