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Regarding the recent bans
Prox:
So I've talked to ruben about this and now I want to bring this discussion in here.
So basically there are two different ways of banning that me and him talked about. The first way is to issue long lasting bans, even perma's and then wait and see if banned users would come back and appeal. If they do so, the ban would be shortened to normal length. To help you better understand how long the bans are I'll give you some basic examples but I recommend you to go and check the sourcebans yourself:
All sorts of rdm - up to 3 months.
Rdm and leave - up to a permanent ban.
The so called rdm and never come back kids - up to permanent ban.
Ghosting - up to a permanent ban.
Teaming - up to a permanent ban.
Another way is giving normal length bans which usually are about up to a week or two long with the exception of ghosting/hacking and some extra cases and, well, I personally prefer this way and I think it is better and I don't feel comfortable with the other way. I do think so because of a few reasons: 1) the other way relies on users coming back and appealing, and the thing is, majority of users who get banned don't even know about the forums, so if the player gets banned for a long period of time and doesn't know about the forums, he's pretty much fucked. 2) a lot of people who end up doing bad stuff usually play normally for majority of their time spent on the servers, so if we ban them for a long time, they'll probably won't come back, which means less populated servers. And especially now, since the server popularity seems to be decreased a little and that there's pretty much at least one VIP/Admin at all times, banning more frequently shouldn't be a problem. After all, you guys been banning people like this for a lot of time and everything went just fine.
I am fully aware that banning for a shorter periods of time increases the possibility of all sorts of rule breakers coming back and keep causing trouble but the benefits of having more people playing outweigh the cons of more people causing trouble, after all, the more players there are, the more trouble there will arise. It will always be like that.
I'd like to see what you people think about this.
Alkaline:
At first, I banned people according to their offense that scales out in days (example: massrdm = 1 week, firstblood = 1 day, ghosting= 2 months). But after playng TTT more and talking to Ruben, banning them for extended periods of time is WAY more beneficial to the server. That way, this troublemaker would really have to care about joining back if he ever thought to do so.
So far, I haven't seen an appeal made by these offenders.
And that other point you brought up, about how it might affect player count. I think it has absolutely no affect on TTT since there are new players every day. Then again, EDIT: would you rather have a server filled with trouble makers or a server half full with normal players?
Rbn:
Well, how to start this...
If you get other admins to convince me after what i have to say i'll change the way how i ban.
I'm not against your way to ban people, but lets talk about.
I don't always permaban people but when i do is for a good reasons.
- Rdm and quit. <- Nothing to explain, as it says.
- Retarded target rdming. I don't need to explain this.
- Ghosting in the most retarded expression. (Ex. see down)
- Ghosting and teaming. (Ex. see down)
- Retarded rdming. (Ex. see down)
Ghosting in the most retarded expression:
These quite retards think they can kill all the traitors without ppl saying "wtf he got first blood rdm why he killed me?", and do it round by round, They are retards.
Getting teams 3, 4, 5 ppl ghosting in the server.
Ghosting and Teaming.
-This is a good example because you were present when this happened and you told me why i banned the other guy permanently, and this is why, both of them were teaming and ghosting in a retarded way that everyone could see, 1 of them inno and the other traitor, 1 killing traitors and the other innocents, which i got killed by his ghosting friend totally random, they guy u banned for a week i think, after that Me Like Dis asked him why he rdm'd and he said "BECAUSE I LIKE IT", you banned his friend for 1 week, but i think you weren't aware that they were teaming and ghosting, i guess you think the other guy was just rdming, anyway...
-Retarded rdming.
Love this, cuz i remember in this map, like 2 days ago was one, really annoying, waiting for ppl pass thru a barrel to shoot it and then i complained and he said, your the retarded i shoot the barrel and u are passing thru it, IS YOUR FAULT, so these kind of ppl know what they are doing and just trying to be smart but inside they are fucking retards.
This even include ppl, that instantly kill you when you ask him, Why did you rdm him, pew pepwpewpewp your ded. Wtf?
I like how you think ppl can change <- In some point you are right, probably 3% of them could think, "I have done something wrong i won't do it again".
But most of them are kids, that they have a retarded attitude in game and doesn't matter what when they come back they, "Revenge against server, Do same shit again or do even worse".
***Lowering permabans to temp bans even to 1 week, do you think people will wait from come back to server and say hi, i am changed, i'm a new person i wont mass rdm either ghost with my 3 friends or rdm and quit when i'm bored.
i can spect that from a member of the community but from some random guy?, after 1 day he will find a server and quit trying to get in this one, 99.99% sure of that, when he get unbanned he will come back for revenge :) <- this is the most common bitch i have seen in all years i have here.
so pointing this out let me show you something.
This is what happens when you give an opportunity to retardeds.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
[Server] ** valdolozanojr ( STEAM_0:1:56855300 ) has left the server! **
*DEAD* (TEAM) (Reg) my ass: le ban
*
*
*
] ttt_print_damagelog
]
*** Damage log:
00:06.71 - DMG: valdolozanojr [detective] damaged my ass [traitor] for 25 dmg
00:40.77 - DMG: valdolozanojr [detective] damaged my ass [traitor] for 27 dmg
00:41.58 - DMG: valdolozanojr [detective] damaged my ass [traitor] for 8 dmg
00:51.36 - KILL: <something/world> killed [THIS IS MY CLAN] ?BoomPie? [innocent]
01:12.21 - DMG: valdolozanojr [detective] damaged my ass [traitor] for 27 dmg
01:13.02 - DMG: valdolozanojr [detective] damaged my ass [traitor] for 7 dmg
01:13.02 - DMG: valdolozanojr [detective] damaged Lazord12 [innocent] for 1 dmg
01:13.02 - DMG: valdolozanojr [detective] damaged my ass [traitor] for 1 dmg
01:13.83 - DMG: valdolozanojr [detective] damaged my ass [traitor] for 27 dmg
01:13.83 - KILL: valdolozanojr [detective] killed my ass [traitor]
01:16.15 - DMG: valdolozanojr [detective] damaged Lazord12 [innocent] for 27 dmg
01:33.89 - DMG: valdolozanojr [detective] damaged Lazord12 [innocent] for 27 dmg
01:34.77 - DMG: valdolozanojr [detective] damaged Lazord12 [innocent] for 9 dmg
01:35.20 - DMG: TRITACOS [innocent] damaged valdolozanojr [detective] for 25 dmg
01:36.06 - DMG: valdolozanojr [detective] damaged Lazord12 [innocent] for 9 dmg
01:36.89 - DMG: valdolozanojr [detective] damaged Lazord12 [innocent] for 9 dmg
01:36.98 - DMG: TRITACOS [innocent] damaged Lazord12 [innocent] for 20 dmg
01:36.98 - KILL: TRITACOS [innocent] killed Lazord12 [innocent]
*** Damage log end.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)[Server] ** XerxesBreak ( STEAM_0:1:61620333 ) has left the server! **
] ttt_print_damagelog
*** Damage log:
00:09.59 - DMG: TRITACOS [innocent] damaged DocSnapple [detective] for 26 dmg
00:14.38 - DMG: TRITACOS [innocent] damaged DocSnapple [detective] for 26 dmg
00:15.45 - DMG: DocSnapple [detective] damaged TRITACOS [innocent] for 9 dmg
00:15.56 - DMG: DocSnapple [detective] damaged TRITACOS [innocent] for 9 dmg
00:15.67 - DMG: DocSnapple [detective] damaged TRITACOS [innocent] for 5 dmg
00:15.88 - DMG: DocSnapple [detective] damaged TRITACOS [innocent] for 5 dmg
00:15.98 - DMG: DocSnapple [detective] damaged TRITACOS [innocent] for 9 dmg
00:16.09 - DMG: DocSnapple [detective] damaged TRITACOS [innocent] for 9 dmg
00:16.20 - DMG: DocSnapple [detective] damaged TRITACOS [innocent] for 40 dmg
00:16.30 - DMG: DocSnapple [detective] damaged TRITACOS [innocent] for 40 dmg
00:16.30 - KILL: DocSnapple [detective] killed TRITACOS [innocent]
00:16.41 - DMG: XerxesBreak [innocent] damaged .:RbND`=- Abooz [traitor] for 26 dmg
00:41.15 - KILL: <something/world> killed Forecast [innocent]
01:03.88 - DMG: XerxesBreak [innocent] damaged DocSnapple [detective] for 73 dmg
01:03.88 - KILL: XerxesBreak [innocent] killed DocSnapple [detective]
01:07.09 - DMG: my ass [innocent] damaged XerxesBreak [innocent] for 62 dmg
01:07.09 - DMG: my ass [innocent] damaged XerxesBreak [innocent] for 22 dmg
01:07.89 - DMG: my ass [innocent] damaged XerxesBreak [innocent] for 17 dmg
01:07.89 - KILL: my ass [innocent] killed XerxesBreak [innocent]
01:49.74 - KILL: <something/world> killed valdolozanojr [traitor]
02:00.30 - KILL: <something/world> killed .:RbND`=- Abooz [traitor]
*** Damage log end.
these 2 up there, i banned just for a day, they came back reloaded to do the same shit.
Spoiler (click to show/hide) *** Damage log:
00:06.32 - DMG: Mr. Old Man [innocent] damaged MrGremlin737 [innocent] for 1 dmg
00:06.32 - DMG: Mr. Old Man [innocent] damaged Reuben's Nippalz [innocent] for 4 dmg
00:10.17 - DMG: Mr. Old Man [innocent] damaged Reuben's Nippalz [innocent] for 1 dmg
00:11.27 - DMG: Mr. Old Man [innocent] damaged Reuben's Nippalz [innocent] for 2 dmg
00:11.35 - DMG: Mr. Old Man [innocent] damaged Reuben's Nippalz [innocent] for 1 dmg
00:11.47 - DMG: Mr. Old Man [innocent] damaged Reuben's Nippalz [innocent] for 2 dmg
00:11.67 - DMG: Mr. Old Man [innocent] damaged Reuben's Nippalz [innocent] for 2 dmg
00:11.86 - DMG: Mr. Old Man [innocent] damaged Reuben's Nippalz [innocent] for 2 dmg
00:12.06 - DMG: Mr. Old Man [innocent] damaged Reuben's Nippalz [innocent] for 2 dmg
00:12.26 - DMG: Mr. Old Man [innocent] damaged Reuben's Nippalz [innocent] for 6 dmg
00:12.45 - DMG: Mr. Old Man [innocent] damaged Reuben's Nippalz [innocent] for 6 dmg
00:12.53 - DMG: Mr. Old Man [innocent] damaged Reuben's Nippalz [innocent] for 1 dmg
00:12.65 - DMG: Mr. Old Man [innocent] damaged Reuben's Nippalz [innocent] for 2 dmg
00:12.85 - DMG: Mr. Old Man [innocent] damaged Reuben's Nippalz [innocent] for 1 dmg
00:13.70 - DMG: Mr. Old Man [innocent] damaged Reuben's Nippalz [innocent] for 1 dmg
00:14.09 - DMG: Mr. Old Man [innocent] damaged Reuben's Nippalz [innocent] for 2 dmg
00:14.48 - DMG: Mr. Old Man [innocent] damaged Reuben's Nippalz [innocent] for 2 dmg
00:17.23 - DMG: Reuben's Nippalz [innocent] damaged Mr. Old Man [innocent] for 20 dmg
00:20.62 - DMG: Mr. Old Man [innocent] damaged Reuben's Nippalz [innocent] for 1 dmg
00:21.02 - DMG: Mr. Old Man [innocent] damaged Reuben's Nippalz [innocent] for 2 dmg
00:21.21 - DMG: Mr. Old Man [innocent] damaged Reuben's Nippalz [innocent] for 2 dmg
00:21.53 - DMG: Aimano [traitor] damaged Reuben's Nippalz [innocent] for 49 dmg
00:21.61 - DMG: Mr. Old Man [innocent] damaged Reuben's Nippalz [innocent] for 2 dmg
00:22.59 - DMG: Mr. Old Man [innocent] damaged Reuben's Nippalz [innocent] for 2 dmg
00:22.79 - DMG: Mr. Old Man [innocent] damaged Reuben's Nippalz [innocent] for 1 dmg
00:22.79 - KILL: Mr. Old Man [innocent] killed Reuben's Nippalz [innocent]
*** Damage log end.
D
[Server] ** Mr. Old Man ( STEAM_0:1:49570881 ) has left the server! **
this one was recently, after that he instantly left, am i wrong if i think he deserve a perma? cuz i actually did nothing that round just walking to be killed by an rdmer 10 seconds after round started... Take in mind this happened to other 2 or 3 ppl before.
*taking in mind if we lower the ban to a maximum of 2 weeks, <- Just thinking, 3+ week will make someone don't come back, specially ghosters and teams 2+ ppl. in a prob proportion of 0.9999 = 99.99%.
Anyway you already pointed the pros about your way, but by other way there's much more cons about not permabanning ppl.
like i said before 97% of them i proved they will come back and do the same shit, i sawwwww many ppl JBanned saying, i never played here why my karma is 1xx, this server is broken rdm and quit.
this will require waaaaaay more active staff, since report section will increase A LOT, since i'm not willing to deal with the same guy over and over, i was doing that for years, and even Vip just handling bans for 1 hour is not enought.
This will require an admin always active on the server which i don't see it, i mean "Active for me is always on watching what is happening", which in this case is why im connected almost 24/7, if not client then thru console, but always watching.
// i guess you saw since i came back from about december to nowdays forum reports are almost over, because i been pbanning ppl(not all of them but yea the retarded ones) and caring servers.
i mean that will fuck up everyone here, unless your going to stay veeeeerrrry active on server checking when they come back and cleaning the dissaster again and again.
which this makes me say, why to do that even banning for a month is stupid is like telling him to never come back but he is welcome to join 1 month later, when you can perma him and if he want to come back make an appeal if they enjoyed the server...
--- Quote ---1) the other way relies on users coming back and appealing, and the thing is, majority of users who get banned don't even know about the forums, so if the player gets banned for a long period of time and doesn't know about the forums, he's pretty much fucked.
--- End quote ---
when they join back the server and they are banned this show's up "You are banned please visit: bans.randomgs.com" which inside that page "Welcome to the bans section.
If you would like to request a ban or unban please visit our forums ( http://forum.randomgs.com/ )".
--- Quote ---2) a lot of people who end up doing bad stuff usually play normally for majority of their time spent on the servers, so if we ban them for a long time, they'll probably won't come back, which means less populated servers. And especially now, since the server popularity seems to be decreased a little and that there's pretty much at least one VIP/Admin at all times, banning more frequently shouldn't be a problem. After all, you guys been banning people like this for a lot of time and everything went just fine.
--- End quote ---
1 day he will comeback, 3 days "probably" come back, 1 week he will be finding another server to fuck up, 1+ weeks is bye bye.
Talking about popularity, gmod has sold more than 2Million copies, about and prob more than 1+ million active users, the server porpularity increased (not much) since i started banning ppl from jan, our bans doesnt even hit 0.1% of the player database banned on gmod, we would need to ban about 1.x million ppl to that happen imo.
well im out, im tired.
~Ruben.
Prox:
--- Quote from: Alkaline on March 08, 2013, 02:37:26 PM ---Then again, you'd rather have a server filled with trouble makers or a server half full with normal players.
--- End quote ---
I don't think that shorter bans = servers filled with trouble makers, longer bans = servers half-full with normal players. Rule breakers to normal people ratio is and was pretty much the same the whole time.
--- Quote from: Rbn on March 08, 2013, 03:11:20 PM --- I like how you think ppl can change <- In some point you are right, probably 3% of them could think, "I have done something wrong i won't do it again".
But most of them are kids, that they have a retarded attitude in game and doesn't matter what when they come back they, "Revenge against server, Do same shit again or do even worse".
***Lowering permabans to temp bans even to 1 week, do you think people will wait from come back to server and say hi, i am changed, i'm a new person i wont mass rdm either ghost with my 3 friends or rdm and quit when i'm bored.
i can spect that from a member of the community but from some random guy?, after 1 day he will find a server and quit trying to get in this one, 99.99% sure of that, when he get unbanned he will come back for revenge :) <- this is the most common bitch i have seen in all years i have here.
--- End quote ---
I never said that people will change like that, but believe it or not, not all people who come back are like that, most of the kids with this attitude don't even come back at all. But yes, some people do come back just to get revenge, as well as some come back to just play normally. It was pretty much like this all the time I've seen.
--- Quote from: Rbn on March 08, 2013, 03:11:20 PM ---this one was recently, after that he instantly left, am i wrong if i think he deserve a perma? cuz i actually did nothing that round just walking to be killed by an rdmer 10 seconds after round started... Take in mind this happened to other 2 or 3 ppl before.
--- End quote ---
Permanently banning people who rdm and leave is probably the main thing that bothers me about this, since most of the people who rdm and leave don't even do as much rdming as mass rdmers and I just don't see how leaving after rdming is such a big violation that it would require a permanent ban, but yeah, it definitely is worse then regular rdm.
--- Quote from: Rbn on March 08, 2013, 03:11:20 PM --- this will require waaaaaay more active staff, since report section will increase A LOT, since i'm not willing to deal with the same guy over and over, i was doing that for years, and even Vip just handling bans for 1 hour is not enought.
This will require an admin always active on the server which i don't see it, i mean "Active for me is always on watching what is happening", which in this case is why im connected almost 24/7, if not client then thru console, but always watching.
// i guess you saw since i came back from about december to nowdays forum reports are almost over, because i been pbanning ppl(not all of them but yea the retarded ones) and caring servers.
i mean that will fuck up everyone here, unless your going to stay veeeeerrrry active on server checking when they come back and cleaning the dissaster again and again.
--- End quote ---
The main reason why there used to be much reports before you started playing was because there weren't as much of administration as there is now, so whether your bans would've been perma or 1 week that would make no significant difference in the amount of reports produced.
--- Quote from: Rbn on March 08, 2013, 03:11:20 PM --- which this makes me say, why to do that even banning for a month is stupid is like telling him to never come back but he is welcome to join 1 month later, when you can perma him and if he want to come back make an appeal if they enjoyed the server...
--- End quote ---
I guess that is a valid point.
--- Quote from: Rbn on March 08, 2013, 03:11:20 PM --- when they join back the server and they are banned this show's up "You are banned please visit: bans.randomgs.com" which inside that page "Welcome to the bans section.
If you would like to request a ban or unban please visit our forums ( http://forum.randomgs.com/ )".
--- End quote ---
I have forgot about this message, but even if it is displayed, a player who got perma banned would much likely join a different server then make an appeal even if he wouldn't have intention to rdm again.
--- Quote from: Rbn on March 08, 2013, 03:11:20 PM ---Talking about popularity, gmod has sold more than 2Million copies, about and prob more than 1+ million active users, the server porpularity increased (not much) since i started banning ppl from jan, our bans doesnt even hit 0.1% of the player database banned on gmod, we would need to ban about 1.x million ppl to that happen imo.
--- End quote ---
I didn't tried to imply that perma banning can make server population go lower, but I do think that there could be a difference with normal bans, I'm just not quite sure how significant it would be.
So the main thing that I don't like is perma banning for rdm and leave because of the reasons that I have already mention in this post. I'd like to see more input on this specific violation. Also I'm not saying that you must change your way of banning either, but I would prefer so, but even if you wont change it, it will not be a big deal to me and I'm sure that I'll be able to live with it.
Rbn:
--- Quote ---Quote from: Alkaline on Yesterday at 04:37:26 PM
Then again, you'd rather have a server filled with trouble makers or a server half full with normal players.
I don't think that shorter bans = servers filled with trouble makers, longer bans = servers half-full with normal players. Rule breakers to normal people ratio is and was pretty much the same the whole time.
--- End quote ---
I do, it's a fact.
--- Quote ---I never said that people will change like that, but believe it or not, not all people who come back are like that, most of the kids with this attitude don't even come back at all. But yes, some people do come back just to get revenge, as well as some come back to just play normally. It was pretty much like this all the time I've seen.
--- End quote ---
Statistically talking that is about less than 3% of those people i guess...
--- Quote ---Permanently banning people who rdm and leave is probably the main thing that bothers me about this, since most of the people who rdm and leave don't even do as much rdming as mass rdmers and I just don't see how leaving after rdming is such a big violation that it would require a permanent ban, but yeah, it definitely is worse then regular rdm.
--- End quote ---
This is where involves different opinions, yours vs mine, which imo, vs a normal rdm, is a total dick move that pisses off everyone, he knows what he is doing, he knows he is being a dick, which most of the time they do Target rdm and leave too.
I know is not big deal for you, for me it is.
Like those 3 rdm and quit ppl and i got yesterday, but, w/e, i guess.
--- Quote ---The main reason why there used to be much reports before you started playing was because there weren't as much of administration as there is now
--- End quote ---
I am sorry, i didn't know admins were attending the several reports i get through chat daily, that people do instead of going forum, i guess i feel like useless now :'(, oh wait... nvm.
--- Quote ---so whether your bans would've been perma or 1 week that would make no significant difference in the amount of reports produced.
--- End quote ---
Simplifying it for you, this is valid for short periods of time, but not for medium, large, think about it.
--- Quote ---I have forgot about this message, but even if it is displayed, a player who got perma banned would much likely join a different server then make an appeal even if he wouldn't have intention to rdm again.
--- End quote ---
i guess you didn't read my "1 day he will comeback, 3 days "probably" come back, 1 week he will be finding another server to fuck up, 1+ weeks is bye bye." but yeah...
even ppl banned for 3 days, came after 1 and half month saying, i never played on this server why my karma so low, and rdm again, waaaaaait uhhh... nvm.
--- Quote ---I didn't tried to imply that perma banning can make server population go lower, but I do think that there could be a difference with normal bans, I'm just not quite sure how significant it would be.
--- End quote ---
i told you like 3 or 4 times how significant will be, but yeah, i guess i'm wrong.
--- Quote ---So the main thing that I don't like is perma banning for rdm and leave because of the reasons that I have already mention in this post. I'd like to see more input on this specific violation. Also I'm not saying that you must change your way of banning either, but I would prefer so, but even if you wont change it, it will not be a big deal to me and I'm sure that I'll be able to live with it.
--- End quote ---
I don't know what makes you think like that since you became admin but, ok, it's your opinion.
Like i said, it up to admin decision, every person thinks different, what are you doing right now, i did years ago, you still have hope on them that can change, i don't, since all the experience i passed through, i guess your focusing just recent bans, which doesn't involve more than 3k - 5k+ permabans i already made before "SB".
Not all of the bans i make are permabans, it depends on the guy, like someone rdming and screaming "BECAUSE I LIKE RDM BITCH" i would perma him, you probably ban for 3 days or 1 week, IDK, thinking, he will change next time that comes back.
Please, Feel free to reduce to temp ban or unban people that you consider shouldn't be permabanned because "they will change", but, you need to talk with me first, just to know who you unbanning and if he deserves it.
I would like to mention here, i won't participate anymore in this topic, but, i'll keep an eye on since i still want to know what other admins thinks.
~Ruben.
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