Author Topic: is the war on terror a winnable war?  (Read 466 times)

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Offline blαh2355

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Re: is the war on terror a winnable war?
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2011, 11:46:35 AM »
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mistake eh? NATO must be really bad at intelligence gathering.
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Offline Frank

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Re: is the war on terror a winnable war?
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2011, 11:49:48 AM »
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Offline Xrain

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Re: is the war on terror a winnable war?
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2011, 11:55:45 AM »
+4
Friendly Fire is a fact of war. It happens, when you have tens of thousands of soldiers all with extremely powerful weaponry, and extensive desensitization training. There are bound to be accidents, no matter how much technology/intelligence we manage to gather.

Since none of us here have served in the military I'd say none of us can really imaging what it's like to be truly in a combat situation. We have good guesses but think about it. There aren't any big flags above people's heads saying "I'M A GOOD GUY". A lot of battle tactics rely on using confusion. 

mistake eh? NATO must be really bad at intelligence gathering.

I'd say unintentionally, if it was intentional, their comm chatter would be more like, "oh hey look civilians! lets shoot the hell out of them." I don't really trust the captions in that film as I couldn't tell what they were holding, and I have a feeling the people who published the video don't have any additional information than I do. I think in that video it's more of a case of unfortunate place at and unfortunate time. Even if there were innocent people in that film they were standing side-by-side with people that did have AK-47's. It is also out of context, I mean, why were there multiple gun ships in that area? Surely not to go harass civilians. Did the military follow one of the targets from an ambush on a convoy?

There is just too many unanswered questions in that, far too easy to sway people's opinion due to the shocking nature of the content of the film. I could just as easily take that film and make it look like the people who died were getting ready to go attack a school full of children. So without proper background it's meaningless to try and make conclusions.

Think of it this way, the people they are fighting have no problem using women and children as fodder. An example of this is I was talking to a soldier who had served over there. They had a small child with a black box go sprinting at the convoy he was in. There had been a history of people running at the convoy and suicide bombing.

They were going to have no choice but to shoot. Luckily before they engaged someone else in the convoy got a side perspective on the box and seen that it was empty, and called it off. A guy had intentionally sent that child running at the convoy to see if we would actually shoot the kid.



Terrorism is defined as people who use terror to gain political power/stuff/demands.

There are always people who will be like this. It's not like wiping out an entire race. People's minds will always think differently. There is no way for terrorism to go away.

You are very much correct, terrorism is a tactic that can be used to further a political agenda. In some cases it's very effective. Germany used it to great effect in WWII.

So if the war on terrorism meant getting rid of the tactic of terrorism, it would take more of a overarching change in thought among the people of the world to change that.


But in reality the statement "War on Terror" in a convenient marketing term similar to "Serious weight loss". It's handy because it is ambiguous enough that it can really mean whatever you want it to mean, while at the same time it still has a relatively specific point. It's definitely a poor practice to use but it is effective none-the-less.

So no we can't win it, and we can win it at the same time. The reason is the ending point is completely arbitrary. Technically we already won it, since the man who was widely associated with the term (G. W. Bush) announced that we "Won the War on Terror".

But we didn't win it since it's generally accepted that the war on terror continues.


So the "war on terror" really when you get down to it is a marketing buzz word, used to leverage spending and policy items.

Before you all go "OMG THE GOVERNMENT IS CONSPIRIFYING ME!!!" This is a common practice, it's used in almost every single industry on the planet. And the reason it is used is because it works.


Example,

What are you more likely to buy.

double data rate type three synchronous dynamic random access memory 1600 MegaHertz

or

Hyper Dominator Alpha 1600 MHZ HD OC DRAM

I went a little overboard but the second one is generally more appealing, as since most people are none techincal, all that technical mumbo-jumbo dosen't really mean anything. Then there are also words that people automatically have positive connotations with. So what sounds cooler DDR3 SDRAM, or HYPER AWESOME OMEGA 9000 DDR3 SDRAM


The same goes for government policy, whats more interesting.


Large troop deployment, reducing potency of risks to public safety and security, while simultaneously spurring economic development in key economic sectors.

or

The War on Terror.

It really is a beautiful marketing term, as exemplified by its success in changing policy and securing funding.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 12:01:06 PM by Xrain »
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Offline Nemisous

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Re: is the war on terror a winnable war?
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2011, 12:36:29 PM »
0
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-kill-team-20110327

Beware, some gory pictures.

i could see killing for sport, if you where a sniper and where engaging enemy targets, because as long as sniper have been around it has been seen almost as a sport, but these are infantry units, sent in to kill women childern and old men thats not right by any military means thats why battles where fought outside cities and in field. i curse the day total war came into being. barbaric
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 12:41:30 PM by Nemisous »

Offline Tiger Guy

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Re: is the war on terror a winnable war?
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2011, 12:38:21 PM »
0
Friendly Fire is a fact of war. It happens, when you have tens of thousands of soldiers all with extremely powerful weaponry, and extensive desensitization training. There are bound to be accidents, no matter how much technology/intelligence we manage to gather.

Since none of us here have served in the military I'd say none of us can really imaging what it's like to be truly in a combat situation. We have good guesses but think about it. There aren't any big flags above people's heads saying "I'M A GOOD GUY". A lot of battle tactics rely on using confusion. 

I'd say unintentionally, if it was intentional, their comm chatter would be more like, "oh hey look civilians! lets shoot the hell out of them." I don't really trust the captions in that film as I couldn't tell what they were holding, and I have a feeling the people who published the video don't have any additional information than I do. I think in that video it's more of a case of unfortunate place at and unfortunate time. Even if there were innocent people in that film they were standing side-by-side with people that did have AK-47's. It is also out of context, I mean, why were there multiple gun ships in that area? Surely not to go harass civilians. Did the military follow one of the targets from an ambush on a convoy?

There is just too many unanswered questions in that, far too easy to sway people's opinion due to the shocking nature of the content of the film. I could just as easily take that film and make it look like the people who died were getting ready to go attack a school full of children. So without proper background it's meaningless to try and make conclusions.

Think of it this way, the people they are fighting have no problem using women and children as fodder. An example of this is I was talking to a soldier who had served over there. They had a small child with a black box go sprinting at the convoy he was in. There had been a history of people running at the convoy and suicide bombing.

They were going to have no choice but to shoot. Luckily before they engaged someone else in the convoy got a side perspective on the box and seen that it was empty, and called it off. A guy had intentionally sent that child running at the convoy to see if we would actually shoot the kid.



You are very much correct, terrorism is a tactic that can be used to further a political agenda. In some cases it's very effective. Germany used it to great effect in WWII.

So if the war on terrorism meant getting rid of the tactic of terrorism, it would take more of a overarching change in thought among the people of the world to change that.


But in reality the statement "War on Terror" in a convenient marketing term similar to "Serious weight loss". It's handy because it is ambiguous enough that it can really mean whatever you want it to mean, while at the same time it still has a relatively specific point. It's definitely a poor practice to use but it is effective none-the-less.

So no we can't win it, and we can win it at the same time. The reason is the ending point is completely arbitrary. Technically we already won it, since the man who was widely associated with the term (G. W. Bush) announced that we "Won the War on Terror".

But we didn't win it since it's generally accepted that the war on terror continues.


So the "war on terror" really when you get down to it is a marketing buzz word, used to leverage spending and policy items.

Before you all go "OMG THE GOVERNMENT IS CONSPIRIFYING ME!!!" This is a common practice, it's used in almost every single industry on the planet. And the reason it is used is because it works.


Example,

What are you more likely to buy.

double data rate type three synchronous dynamic random access memory 1600 MegaHertz

or

Hyper Dominator Alpha 1600 MHZ HD OC DRAM

I went a little overboard but the second one is generally more appealing, as since most people are none techincal, all that technical mumbo-jumbo dosen't really mean anything. Then there are also words that people automatically have positive connotations with. So what sounds cooler DDR3 SDRAM, or HYPER AWESOME OMEGA 9000 DDR3 SDRAM


The same goes for government policy, whats more interesting.


Large troop deployment, reducing potency of risks to public safety and security, while simultaneously spurring economic development in key economic sectors.

or

The War on Terror.

It really is a beautiful marketing term, as exemplified by its success in changing policy and securing funding.

I got a new title for you

XRain - King of TL;DR

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Friendly fire has always been a issue in war, so you can't just blame American soldiers for it, I'm sure Canadian and British soldiers have done it too.
Youtube

10:27 PM - Sabb: are you litter trained

Offline Shawn

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Re: is the war on terror a winnable war?
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2011, 07:14:54 PM »
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Friendly Fire is a fact of war. It happens

And it would happen less if some people didn't disregard hold fire orders.
it's incidents like this that gets me upset, lives could've been saved if they followed their orders.
IE: The Tarnak Farm incident.

Quote
When your flight lead warned you to "make sure it's not friendlies" and the Airborne Warning and Control System aircraft controller directed you to "stand by" and later to "hold fire," you should have marked the location with your targeting pod. Thereafter, if you believed, as you stated, you and your leader were threatened, you should have taken a series of evasive actions and remained at a safe distance to await further instructions from AWACS. Instead, you closed on the target and blatantly disobeyed the direction to "hold fire." Your failure to follow that order is inexcusable. I do not believe you acted in defense of Major Umbach or yourself. Your actions indicate that you used your self-defense declaration as a pretext to strike a target, which you rashly decided was an enemy firing position, and about which you had exhausted your patience in waiting for clearance from the Combined Air Operations Center to engage. You used the inherent right of self-defense as an excuse to wage your own war.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 07:17:12 PM by Shawn »

Offline blαh2355

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Re: is the war on terror a winnable war?
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2011, 09:04:51 PM »
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And it would happen less if some people didn't disregard hold fire orders.
it's incidents like this that gets me upset, lives could've been saved if they followed their orders.
IE: The Tarnak Farm incident.
My god, such stupidity... if it was a SAM launch, then wouldn't the plane have some kind of warning or beeping saying that he's locked on and is being fired upon?



Offline Xrain

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Re: is the war on terror a winnable war?
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2011, 09:21:03 PM »
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And it would happen less if some people didn't disregard hold fire orders.
it's incidents like this that gets me upset, lives could've been saved if they followed their orders.
IE: The Tarnak Farm incident.

Indeed, I agree with you entirely. But, your original post still remains quite a bit harsh. It seems like the Tarnak Farm incident was the case of a cocky pilot more than just a little bit war hungry.

The military is like any other group of people, there are great people, there are most of the people, and there are assholes. The situation of what happened with your countrymen is just all around horrible. But is it really fair to characterize everyone else in the US military as assholes who just want to shoot everything. They media seems to try and do their best to make it seem that way, and in some cases it does actually happen and when it does it's magnified due to the power of the arms used.

We have come along way to reducing unwanted casualties of civilians and events of friendly fire, with more precise munitions and much better information gathering, but it's still not perfect, and probably never will be.

But in the end, there really is nothing good about war, its just two groups of people out to kill each other for differences in opinion, so no matter how you slice it, it will always be a terrible thing. But for the events and the climate that surrounded the start of the war, it did make a lot of sense, even if it was our own damn fault that we set up Afghanistan in that way. However if it's still relevant now... I'd say its more of a catch-22 where if we pull out we will lose pretty much everything that people died for, however if we stay more people will die with no clear end in sight.

One of my very best Friends is currently deployed in Kandahar, Afghanistan. So honestly I'd say stay for a year or so more, and try and get things calmed down. And if they do great, it's a good opportunity to get out of there, otherwise it would probably be the point of diminishing returns where further fighting wont do much, so get out of there anyway.
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Offline Shawn

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Re: is the war on terror a winnable war?
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2011, 09:39:47 PM »
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Deleted.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 09:52:42 PM by Shawn »

Offline Nemisous

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Re: is the war on terror a winnable war?
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2011, 10:04:47 PM »
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My god, such stupidity... if it was a SAM launch, then wouldn't the plane have some kind of warning or beeping saying that he's locked on and is being fired upon?

indeed they do, they have a censer that alerts the pilot when a missile is locked on, but im not sure if it works with SAMs it think they are laser guided.

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Re: is the war on terror a winnable war?
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2011, 06:53:13 PM »
+2
I think whenever Xrain posts, it should add 5 to his post count. To be fair.

Offline Nemisous

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Re: is the war on terror a winnable war?
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2011, 09:00:06 PM »
+2
i figured id post this as its a real eye opener.

Imagine - Ron Paul 2012

Offline blαh2355

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Re: is the war on terror a winnable war?
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2011, 08:10:40 PM »
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i figured id post this as its a real eye opener.

Imagine - Ron Paul 2012
I just wat'd but okay. Pretty much making us feel bad of putting troops in the Middle East over there but its gotta point.



Offline Mr. Franklin

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Re: is the war on terror a winnable war?
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2011, 10:46:39 PM »
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The war on terror is not even a war, the war on terror is a foreign policy to protect the united states and its allies during the Bush administration. Unfortunately George Bush, also addressed a term called the "Axis of evil".

The Axis of evil is a term that was used by the former U.S. President George W. Bush in his State of the Union Address on January 29, 2002 and often repeated throughout his presidency, describing governments that he accused of helping terrorism and seeking weapons of mass destruction. He labeled Iran, Iraq and North Korea as the axis of evil. Now there is one thing to consider here, why have we been tricked by Bush's view on the war on terrorism?


Now onto Obama's War on terror, The Obama administration has promised the closing of the Guantanamo Bay detention camp, increased the number of troops in Afghanistan, and promised the withdrawal of its troops from Iraq. I fear that during 2008 to now, there has been a bunch of secret operations overseas that were portrayed as an act of terrorism. I believe, the war on terror is just a big accident that the U.S. government is trying to hide.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 10:49:37 PM by Mr. Franklin »
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Offline Frank

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Re: is the war on terror a winnable war?
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2011, 03:49:24 AM »
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The war on terror is not even a war, the war on terror is a foreign policy to protect the united states and its allies during the Bush administration. Unfortunately George Bush, also addressed a term called the "Axis of evil".

The Axis of evil is a term that was used by the former U.S. President George W. Bush in his State of the Union Address on January 29, 2002 and often repeated throughout his presidency, describing governments that he accused of helping terrorism and seeking weapons of mass destruction. He labeled Iran, Iraq and North Korea as the axis of evil. Now there is one thing to consider here, why have we been tricked by Bush's view on the war on terrorism?


Now onto Obama's War on terror, The Obama administration has promised the closing of the Guantanamo Bay detention camp, increased the number of troops in Afghanistan, and promised the withdrawal of its troops from Iraq. I fear that during 2008 to now, there has been a bunch of secret operations overseas that were portrayed as an act of terrorism. I believe, the war on terror is just a big accident that the U.S. government is trying to hide.
The wrong part is, it's no accident.