.:`=-~rANdOm~`-=:. Game Servers
.:`=-~rANdOm~`-=:. Game Servers (Read Only) => Discussion => Topic started by: yoshi on January 31, 2012, 03:25:24 PM
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Since Snivy locked that one thread, i decided to make a thread an official thread of Permakarma instead of people making a million complains in the request/suggestion forum about it.
Try not to turn this into a big warfest.
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I'm going to quote this from gamefreak:
I think we'd be just fine resetting karma to 850 every map. We have fairly active VIPs in TTT now (me and tiger guy) and there wouldn't be many problems just kicking/banning people who last-round RDM.
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As it stands, it gives more power to the minges, which pretty much seems to be the reason its there. Minges can just shoot at people or run around with T weapons they find, and then the get all happy when an inno kills them and loses karma. And that happens too often
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As it stands, it gives more power to the minges, which pretty much seems to be the reason its there. Minges can just shoot at people or run around with T weapons they find, and then the get all happy when an inno kills them and loses karma. And that happens too often
Perma karma pretty much puts a giant banner over the server and says "MINGING HERE" once they find out about the flaw. They will purposely act like a traitor by shooting at people, making them believe they are a traitor. But once someone kills them, bon voyage to their karma.
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Actually having perma karma is good against for those who rdms and then the next round they lose karma and which wouldn't be big of a deal..
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I disagree entirely.
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I disagree entirely.
Elaborate?
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Permakarma is efficient at reducing all sorts of things.
The problem here is that you are flustered by your karma loss when you make a mistake. If someone is baiting you, and you kill them, and they laugh, report them. Karma and traitor baiting is unacceptable. And many people do it regularly, and I'm tired of it.
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Permakarma is efficient at reducing all sorts of things.
The problem here is that you are flustered by your karma loss when you make a mistake. If someone is baiting you, and you kill them, and they laugh, report them. Karma and traitor baiting is unacceptable. And many people do it regularly, and I'm tired of it.
Do you know how annoying and tedious it is to make a report and getting "proper proof" everytime someone is traitor baiting or RDM? Honestly perma karma just made everything
more tedious and frustrating.
EDIT: Not only that, we got shit tons of VIPs and admin.
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Do you know how annoying and tedious it is to make a report and getting "proper proof" everytime someone is traitor baiting or RDM? Honestly perma karma just made everything
more tedious and frustrating.
EDIT: Not only that, we got shit tons of VIPs and admin.
Tell someone. Call someone in.
If we have enough VIPs, then have one of them start a voteban.
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Tell someone. Call someone in.
If we have enough VIPs, then have one of them start a voteban.
It won't do you much good now that you have low karma and there's no way to get it back. What if it's just a random minge passing by on our server who does not plan to comeback? And since many different players visit our servers every day, a small percentage that stay, it would be pretty tedious reporting, having to call someone in every time it happens...to only ban a few players out of god knows how much are out there in the gmod world.
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Honestly, I don't see why we've done this yet. It would virtually eliminate baiting, which literally accounts for about 50% of ACTUAL KARMA LOSS. It's absolutely impractical.
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Fine do whatever i don't even play anymore.
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Can someone fill me more in this incident?
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Can someone fill me more in this incident?
Uh, it's not really a single incident...
It's multiple incidents that stretch out over the past year or so...
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Pretty much everyone that wants perma-karma gone was here before it was even added.
That said, maybe a lot of the opinions for permakarma are biased.
Maybe
> Try adding non-perma karma TTT on rotation?
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Pretty much everyone that wants perma-karma gone was here before it was even added.
That said, maybe a lot of the opinions for permakarma are biased.
Maybe
> Try adding non-perma karma TTT on rotation?
We never know until we try it.
Science
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I never played rNd without saved karma, and I never want to either.
It's [the strict karma system] what made our ttt stand out and is a main reason I enjoy it more than others.
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> Try adding non-perma karma TTT on rotation?
This. Prevents last round RDM and ultimate karma loss.
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If there was no perma-karma, karma would be reset after each map change.
People could still bait and fuck you up the whole map, repeat. That issue is not solved by resetting karma every map change.
Karma reset after map change would mean more power to the minges to join and leave, not only from baiting but from rdm and waiting a map change or so, coming back the next week w/e, and having full ability to execute the same minge tactic.
Temporary karma doesn't fix the issue, seems to add more and as a result even more reports would probably be filed.
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If there was no perma-karma, karma would be reset after each map change.
People could still bait and fuck you up the whole map, repeat. That issue is not solved by resetting karma every map change.
Karma reset after map change would mean more power to the minges to join and leave, not only from baiting but from rdm and waiting a map change or so, coming back the next week w/e, and having full ability to execute the same minge tactic.
Temporary karma doesn't fix the issue, seems to add more and as a result even more reports would probably be filed.
Thank you,
fuckin
/THREAD
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It's [the strict karma system] what made our ttt stand out and is a main reason I enjoy it more than others.
>implying that makes us stand out for a good reason
A large percentage of the gmod community wouldn't continue to play on our servers knowing we have perma karma.
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If there was no perma-karma, karma would be reset after each map change.
People could still bait and fuck you up the whole map, repeat. That issue is not solved by resetting karma every map change.
Karma reset after map change would mean more power to the minges to join and leave, not only from baiting but from rdm and waiting a map change or so, coming back the next week w/e, and having full ability to execute the same minge tactic.
Temporary karma doesn't fix the issue, seems to add more and as a result even more reports would probably be filed.
that
//thread
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If there was no perma-karma, karma would be reset after each map change.
People could still bait and fuck you up the whole map, repeat. That issue is not solved by resetting karma every map change.
Karma reset after map change would mean more power to the minges to join and leave, not only from baiting but from rdm and waiting a map change or so, coming back the next week w/e, and having full ability to execute the same minge tactic.
Temporary karma doesn't fix the issue, seems to add more and as a result even more reports would probably be filed.
Well that's nice, now since perma karma is probably going to stay, I guess I'm done with RND TTT.
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Personally i like the way the karma system, if we just reset everyone's karma every round there would be rdm fest's constantly.
The one thing that i dislike about the karma system is how senstitive it is.
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I really dont know why you guys.
Didn't have a single problem with it.
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>implying that makes us stand out for a good reason
A large percentage of the gmod community wouldn't continue to play on our servers knowing we have perma karma.
And a large percent of those are trolls and minges. I was not around before perma karma and even so I feel safe saying it's far superior to temp karma, temp karma promotes rdm not only last round, knowing that it will reset in the next 5 rounds guaranteed perma karma, though yes many times punishes the man killing the baiter, you would think if you play enough to where this issue affects you personally and you care enough to post you would be smart enough to decipher when one is baiting and when one is not. Temp karma would not solve this issue anyway I can get my karma back from 500 the average score it drops to from 1 karma bait or inno kill in general to 850 in less then a map with 2-3 t kills it's not difficult, temp karma opens the door for even more minging then we already experience and after a crime is committed aka karma baiting not much can be done unless you were recording prior to or a vip was present and I play for an average of 6 hours a day (a little too much) and can safely say half of it is NOT monitored by a vip you can call yes but what good does it do after the fact and the inability to report with no demo how else can you prove baiting (unless directly shooting) as is the karma system in itself is like always having a vip/admin on for rdm in any form and it punishes as it should the baiting issue can not be solved in full by perma or temp alone.
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Fix: On rotative, make it one week TTT temp karma. If it goes well with barely minges, we know wat do.
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If it goes well with barely minges, we know wat do.
Good Ol' TTT
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Ah yes, good ole TTT karma issue.
I pretty much hated permenint Karma with a passion of 1000 suns.
Mostly because the available time I have to play TTT is very limited, and every mistake I made pretty much screwed me over for a week or two.
But time passed, and I got better at playing with the perma-karma. And in reality, it does add quite a few nice strategic additions to the game. For instance as a T you can pretty much count on everyone being very conservative, so if you happen to have a Huge in a crowded room, there is a good chance you can kill just about everyone. Since the confusion and the inherent reluctance of people to fire basically causes mass chaos.
I realized that all the implementation of perma-karma meant was an alteration in play style, and not a reduction in fun-value.
Since the first time the TTT server was added to the Rnd servers, there has been a fairly constant, and unceasing stream of whining about it.
Before when we had temporary karma, there was lots of OMG I HATE ALL THE RDM'ers SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE.
So something was done, and in all honesty it was the most effective method of mitigating Rdm that we could think of that wouldn't add excessive overhead on the admins.
There isn't a cut and dry answer to this, as with most things in life, there are simply too many variables involved to have a simple solution.
Like most of the rules on the server, it's give and take, we can give you more rigidity in the rules, or relax them, but realize that the freedom you have are going to decrease or increase proportionally.
So far the response have overwhelmingly been to increase the strictness of rules for the past couple years, so keep this in mind.
I could agree that semi-perminent karma could be a good thing, but in reality, the effect it would actually have in-game would be incredibly minor as the time it takes to rebuild karma is much less than a week. And honestly would be more of a pain in the ass to me as I work very hard to keep my karma around 950, and if it reset every week that would be a problem since I can generally only play once a week.
So it goes both ways.
So I'd say leave it how it is. It's worked very well for the past year or two (however long it was) We also haven't seen a decline in numbers in the server, so I'd say we must be doing something right. The best we can hope for in this case is to rely on the administration staff to keep the "soft" offenders who traitor bait and such in check.
They always say that the best compromise leaves no party happy.
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If there was no perma-karma, karma would be reset after each map change.
People could still bait and fuck you up the whole map, repeat. That issue is not solved by resetting karma every map change.
People bait anyways, and baiters have more power than the "good" players. I often find when a T opens fire on a person, the person has a good chance to start running in circles yelling "Stop shooting me!". If a person shoots you, you shouldnt fear shooting back. People with low karma can still bait and cause a play to lose up to 200 karma a kill, which is a pretty good reduction in damage, and therefor ability to play
Karma reset after map change would mean more power to the minges to join and leave, not only from baiting but from rdm and waiting a map change or so, coming back the next week w/e, and having full ability to execute the same minge tactic.
Yes but if they so wish, they still have the power to do so, low karma doesnt affect baiters that much. Rdmers? Yes it affects them, by turning them into baiters
Temporary karma doesn't fix the issue, seems to add more and as a result even more reports would probably be filed.
Whats wrong with more reports? Is it not a better solution to remove minges, compared to give minges slightly more or less power, while also giving actual players less power? Also, there are more VIPS and admins available to quickly remove those players who cause trouble
I will still say yes to temp karma
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Here is a change I would like to see added:
An increase to karma GAINED by 50%-100%
Karma loss is fine as is, it's a suitable punishment.
But it just drags on round after round.
When my karma dips below 400, I don't have fun. At all.
If this goes on for a few rounds I grin and bear it.
But currently I just quit TTT for about a week or so until I have enough free time to get out of it.
So, let me restate what I want.
Karma loss= same.
Karma gain = increased by a good amount.
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You should get 25 karma for killing a innocent.
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You should get 25 karma for killing a innocent.
As a traitor you mean?
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Permakarma is fine, the current "NO MISTAKES END OF RINE" system isn't.
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Permakarma is fine, the current "NO MISTAKES END OF RINE" system isn't.
Agreed. It simply sucks to spend 3 hours failing due to low karma while you wait for it to get back up. Also, I agree with Cogs, the system would work better if the karma gain each round was higher.
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Permakarma is fine, the current "NO MISTAKES END OF RINE" system isn't.
Ill agree with this. Its not so much the perma karma being bad, its that if a baiter successfully baits you once or twice, well there goes the day trying to go from 90% reduction back up to 100% karma. Weve no need for such dire things when there are active VIPs on TTT
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Okay, so heres my view on the whole perma karma thing.
TTT was be played like this,
Innocents assume everyone is a traitor until proven innocent.
Traitors want to convince the innocents that they themselves are innocent, while picking off the innos one-by-one.
The way it was before, the entire game revolved said concepts. If you were innocent, you'd try your fucking best not to look like a traitor, because if for whatever reason you were suspected, people wouldn't hesitate to shoot you. If you were a traitor, you'd do your best to not look like a T, and you'd have to be careful when you killed someone.
It was actually, you know, fun.
Now it's just "Oh man, I'd better not shoot this guy because he could still be inno even though he shot me, and he's just baiting me" and so many other stupid reasons holding you back from actually being able to enjoy the game.
Everyone says RDMing would be a huge problem if there wasn't perma karma. Yes, there will be a lot of last-round RDM. That happened when temp karma was still here. The difference being though, is that you'll actually be able to have fun for the other 80% of the time, and if you're not a hardass, even enjoy the last round. Most of the time, it was usually the entire server agreeing to do a last-round DM. People never even did it unless everyone agreed to it. Right now, you can't even enjoy it becuase a single fuckup will lead to you having to spend the next 10-20 rounds regaining your karma.
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Okay, so heres my view on the whole perma karma thing.
TTT was be played like this,
Innocents assume everyone is a traitor until proven innocent.
Traitors want to convince the innocents that they themselves are innocent, while picking off the innos one-by-one.
The way it was before, the entire game revolved said concepts. If you were innocent, you'd try your fucking best not to look like a traitor, because if for whatever reason you were suspected, people wouldn't hesitate to shoot you. If you were a traitor, you'd do your best to not look like a T, and you'd have to be careful when you killed someone.
It was actually, you know, fun.
Now it's just "Oh man, I'd better not shoot this guy because he could still be inno even though he shot me, and he's just baiting me" and so many other stupid reasons holding you back from actually being able to enjoy the game.
Everyone says RDMing would be a huge problem if there wasn't perma karma. Yes, there will be a lot of last-round RDM. That happened when temp karma was still here. The difference being though, is that you'll actually be able to have fun for the other 80% of the time, and if you're not a hardass, even enjoy the last round. Most of the time, it was usually the entire server agreeing to do a last-round DM. People never even did it unless everyone agreed to it. Right now, you can't even enjoy it becuase a single fuckup will lead to you having to spend the next 10-20 rounds regaining your karma.
THIS is it exactly.
The problem is not perma-karma, but how absolutely fucked up the method of determining karma loss can be sometimes... and lets face it, accidents shouldn't have as much of a karma loss as it can be now, and getting your karma back up shouldn't take as long as it can - defending permakarma is much easier, imo, than defending those hellish implementations of karma loss/gain factoring.
edit: and lately I've seen people who call for vip/admin on global being told more and more to get proof, and do a report - and nothing else is done, which is very discerning. If the people in question - being the problem players - keep returning, yes do a report, but if those people who caused the call for a VIP/admin are being a nuisance enough to really disrupt gameplay, then shouldn't they, I dunno, be dealt with? Isn't that one of the duties a VIP should be doing?
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Okay, so heres my view on the whole perma karma thing.
TTT was be played like this,
Innocents assume everyone is a traitor until proven innocent.
Traitors want to convince the innocents that they themselves are innocent, while picking off the innos one-by-one.
The way it was before, the entire game revolved said concepts. If you were innocent, you'd try your fucking best not to look like a traitor, because if for whatever reason you were suspected, people wouldn't hesitate to shoot you. If you were a traitor, you'd do your best to not look like a T, and you'd have to be careful when you killed someone.
It was actually, you know, fun.
Now it's just "Oh man, I'd better not shoot this guy because he could still be inno even though he shot me, and he's just baiting me" and so many other stupid reasons holding you back from actually being able to enjoy the game.
Everyone says RDMing would be a huge problem if there wasn't perma karma. Yes, there will be a lot of last-round RDM. That happened when temp karma was still here. The difference being though, is that you'll actually be able to have fun for the other 80% of the time, and if you're not a hardass, even enjoy the last round. Most of the time, it was usually the entire server agreeing to do a last-round DM. People never even did it unless everyone agreed to it. Right now, you can't even enjoy it becuase a single fuckup will lead to you having to spend the next 10-20 rounds regaining your karma.
I enjoy the game more not being rdm'd constantly as it happens on others servers I used to play (used to play for a reason) and as far as I'm concerned someone saying you're acting suspicious so I shot you does not classify as a reason to kill now with temp karma everyone will be more gutsy you're correct however that's a bad thing it will make things entirely different then how they are now people will kill too much instead of too little then we'll probably see an increase in ghosting considering now the average player no longer fears karma leaving them to use suspicion as an excuse for ghosting with no one to say otherwise. I agree if anything needs to be done its some form of cogs idea perhaps if a detective kill as traitor gives you 50 karma and inno kills give you 10 each then as an inno a traitor kill gives you 150 not only will it make perma karma not such a bitch at times but it will also encourage playing the game correctly and in general make for better gameplay.
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...instead of too little then we'll probably see an increase in ghosting considering now the average player no longer fears karma...
But karma being gone doesn't negate the banhammer aspect of ghosting/being caught.
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Okay, so heres my view on the whole perma karma thing.
TTT was be played like this,
Innocents assume everyone is a traitor until proven innocent.
Traitors want to convince the innocents that they themselves are innocent, while picking off the innos one-by-one.
The way it was before, the entire game revolved said concepts. If you were innocent, you'd try your fucking best not to look like a traitor, because if for whatever reason you were suspected, people wouldn't hesitate to shoot you. If you were a traitor, you'd do your best to not look like a T, and you'd have to be careful when you killed someone.
It was actually, you know, fun.
Now it's just "Oh man, I'd better not shoot this guy because he could still be inno even though he shot me, and he's just baiting me" and so many other stupid reasons holding you back from actually being able to enjoy the game.
Everyone says RDMing would be a huge problem if there wasn't perma karma. Yes, there will be a lot of last-round RDM. That happened when temp karma was still here. The difference being though, is that you'll actually be able to have fun for the other 80% of the time, and if you're not a hardass, even enjoy the last round. Most of the time, it was usually the entire server agreeing to do a last-round DM. People never even did it unless everyone agreed to it. Right now, you can't even enjoy it becuase a single fuckup will lead to you having to spend the next 10-20 rounds regaining your karma.
I say we message Coolz.