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Holy cow a fox news article that actually makes sense!

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Prox:

--- Quote from: Tezuni on October 29, 2013, 11:37:37 PM ---In the context of my reply to xrain, the world used to be in a state of nature on an individual scale.  Cavemen vs Caveman to kill and eat that single animal left in the field, or sleep knowing you are safe from the other guy.  It was kill or be killed, and anyone that bent a knee in peace first would die first.  It's the same thing in the modern day, except on that larger scale.

--- End quote ---
Do you actually think that all countries today have caveman morals? If so, then how come there haven't been a world war 3 already? How come countries are able to cooperate and trade with each other? I agree that each country always looks for it's own benefit but the idea that you proposed is way too extreme.


--- Quote from: Tezuni on October 29, 2013, 11:37:37 PM ---A country can't adopt a philosophy, like "be the change you want to see in the world" and give up spying in the hopes others follow suit.  It won't happen and they will pay a price for their wishful thinking because they will be at a severe disadvantage and others will take further advantage of that. 

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It's like you haven't even read what I've said. Your example does not fit my previous statement because it is not what I meant at all, heck, I even acknowledged that spying won't probably even end, what I've said was that spying isn't always useful as you guys seem to think, in the wrong hands it can be incredibly easy to abuse such power. I also would like to add that spying isn't morally right thing to do and encouraging it or looking for excuses to justify it is really not the way to go. In my opinion everyone should at least acknowledge that.

Tezuni:

--- Quote from: Prox on October 30, 2013, 03:59:42 AM ---Do you actually think that all countries today have caveman morals? If so, then how come there haven't been a world war 3 already? How come countries are able to cooperate and trade with each other? I agree that each country always looks for it's own benefit but the idea that you proposed is way too extreme.
It's like you haven't even read what I've said. Your example does not fit my previous statement because it is not what I meant at all, heck, I even acknowledged that spying won't probably even end, what I've said was that spying isn't always useful as you guys seem to think, in the wrong hands it can be incredibly easy to abuse such power. I also would like to add that spying isn't morally right thing to do and encouraging it or looking for excuses to justify it is really not the way to go. In my opinion everyone should at least acknowledge that.

--- End quote ---
You can't afford to have morals if the cost is your life, when it's you or them is my point.  Countries trade out of mutual benefit.  It's not so extreme if you think about it because people are often selfish.  I read what you said, and I restated that spying won't end, to support the point that it'd be foolish for one side to suddenly stop as a moral example, because others would just take advantage of that.  And yes I do also agree spying isn't always useful, but it's still essential.  I also agree it's not pretty or necessarily moral.  However, there are reasons or 'excuses' to spy, as has been said.

Prox:

--- Quote from: Tezuni on October 30, 2013, 05:49:23 AM ---You can't afford to have morals if the cost is your life, when it's you or them is my point.  Countries trade out of mutual benefit.  It's not so extreme if you think about it because people are often selfish.  I read what you said, and I restated that spying won't end, to support the point that it'd be foolish for one side to suddenly stop as a moral example, because others would just take advantage of that.  And yes I do also agree spying isn't always useful, but it's still essential.  I also agree it's not pretty or necessarily moral.  However, there are reasons or 'excuses' to spy, as has been said.

--- End quote ---
Essential or not, the spying mostly (for example the current NSA spying) benefits the government aka the 1% while it can be and is probably being used against certain citizens that the government sees as a "threat" to them.
If governments would have their citizen interests in mind when spying then it would be different case. 

saivon:
Spying is bad. But people globally do it all the time to each other so who cares

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